Engineering as a Profession

[wendy jacksonParticipant @wendyjackson]

Its not just the school system that's wrong. its the complete lack of industry. I left school in 1973 in Bristol. there was rolls Royce, ICI, water, gas electric company's, bus company the metal works, carbon black works and the chocolate factory all looking for trainee engineers. Filton alone had around 3000 lads per years filling the tech collages. that's all gone and never to return. is it any wonder that the country is on a down ward path. lads followed their dads. now all they follow is the dole lane. sad very sad.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I have worked in engineering for 40 years and have been proud to do so. I have always received good recognition for my profession. Without engineers we would still be in the stone age. No cars, internet, mobile phones, etc.

Would you walk over a bridge designed by an engineer or a scientist ? Or fly in a plane designed by an engineer or a doctor ? Engineers rule !!!!!!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Paul Lousick on 22/12/2014 21:05:00:

 

Would you walk over a bridge designed by an engineer or a scientist ? Or fly in a plane designed by an engineer or a doctor ? Engineers rule !!!!!!

.

 

You can have a doctor of engineering, I know two very well. One is actually Dr. Dr. Dr. John and then last name.

But being modest he omits two of the doctorates.

 

The first Dr has actually built her own plane from a set of plans – no kit AND flown the Atlantic ocean  solo in this single engine sports plane. Not once but three times.

 

Edited By John Stevenson on 22/12/2014 21:15:46

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

The original quote was "would you walk over a bridge designed by an engineer or an accountant" but some of the above posts were talking about scientists. My "oldtimers" disease kicked in and I miss quoted the saying. (scientists and doctors also rule)

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by terry callaghan on 22/12/2014 20:58:51:

. lads followed their dads. now all they follow is the dole lane. sad very sad.

I think one possibility is that the 'Lads' don't want to move away from their 'Dads'

Most of our apprentices come from the other ends of the country and some from as far as Europe.

I agree that the days of shipbuilding and the like have ended, but things have moved on and there are still many that want to make a career out of modern engineering.

Some of these guys (and gals) are just sixteen and to leave family and friends in search of a career must be one hell of a wrench and should be applauded.

No dole lane for them.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I don't know if you mean engineering trade or engineering (the boffin's with the slipsticks who work with paper instead of metal). Anyway, i went into the engineering trade as a fitter/turner, done the four year apprenticeship and while doing that i did evening courses in mig , tig and arc welding (all to asme ix standard) , pipe fitting, fluid power, cad/cam and a few more i forget, then a few years ago i did a degree course in maintenance engineering. My sister on the other hand left school and did a six month course in being a receptionist, while doing that she did courses in ecdl and general book keeping, she was finished these courses after about 18 months.

Guess who earns more ? Well it ain't me, in fact at my last job interview when the interviewer asked me what salary i would want (average industrial), he laughed and said (don't want to get into ukip territory here) that he could have two polish tradesmen for the same salary ( which wasn't ott).

A friend of mine's grandson left school last year and asked my opinion of him going to serve an engineering apprenticeship in a train maintenance works, i talked him out of it and he went into computer software instead. There he won't have to work in cold dirty surroundings with an oik with the manner of a boar pig supervising him and all for a pittance of a wage.

Engineering is a great hobby but a complete joke as a profession (imho).

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

There is another side of the coin because everyone here has mentioned working for someone.

What about the other side of the coin and working for yourself to [a[ make it more interesting and [b] get bigger ulcers.

Just joking.

But seriously i have been self employed most of my working life, firstly in running a truck garage for 19 years and when that stated going thin because of lease hire etc, backed out and went back engineering but in the repair trade.

To be honest I have had a very interesting and quite lucrative life, also helped a lot by getting a decent interpretation of the tax laws as they stand in this country. Note I didn't say pay no tax, I said their interpretation of them.

It's now got to the time of life where I want to back off a bit and settle to do what I want but work is still so good that it's hard to get to this point.

Literally swearing and cursing at customers just makes them laugh more and send more work, some on here who have been in my shop can attest to this. According to the news etc we have just had or are coming out of a recession ? What's a recession ? In the repair and maintenance field when money gets tight you just mend more instead of buying new.

So would I recommend going into engineering ? Yes but work for yourself.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I've spent my working life in Engineering, in various roles, draftsman, work study engineer, process engineer, manufacturing engineer, production engineer. Pretty much all my working life was spent "doing courses". None at degree level, but I ended up with the Australian equivalent of an HNC with lots of endorsements, mech eng, naval architecture, management etc etc.

Quite honestly, apart from the last couple of years, I loved it. I've always been interested in engineering and still am. However I can't imagine any youngster starting out staying the course without a passion for engineering, it's simply to difficult and complicated. I've always looked on it as a vocation rather than a job.

It's such a shame that in the UK, USA, Australia Engineering as a profession is held in such low esteem, but then re-reading the original post it seems that it's not a new phenomenon.

cheers

Bill

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

To add to the misery expressed here I have memories of a great mate of mine, when we were both in our early twenties 50 odd years ago, analysing the low esteem in which engineers are held as being due to the motor car.

His thought was that because many people at that time could do some maintenance on their cars, Morris Minors etc. which those people regarded as engineering then engineers must be simple. Once an idea takes root how do you shift it?

I might add he was an engineering apprentice with Metal Box, of sad but glorious memory.

Jerry

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

It took a world war for ships engineers to be given officer status and today a chief engineer is probably better qualified than the captain but I would say that as an ex engineering officer.

Ships engineers have to be flexible and innovative as you can not call the AA in the middle of the pond.

Bob

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I do wonder what would have happened if I hadn't had such a brilliant biology teacher and the decent physics teacher hadn't been off for a year. My original ambition had been to get to the RAE at Farnborough and put crashed aeroplanes back together, but I ended up doing one of the first specialist courses in environmental biology and taking rats apart instead.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Plenty of rats that need taking apart(mainly of the 2 legged type).

Ian S C

[MM57Participant @mm57]

Posted by Lofty76 on 22/12/2014 15:28:55:

When I left school in 1973..I opted for an Aeronautical Apprenticship with The MoD, and qualified five years later with a TEng CEI AMSLAET set of letters to carry about.

Hmm…sounds a bit familiar – does the Student Engineer Training Centre at RAE Farnborough mean anything to you?

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

For my part i entered an engineering apprenticeship after leaving school, went into the army, studied biochemistry at University and now work in global quality control. There are no engineers left in our area and less and less scientists. No industry! No future?

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Millener on 23/12/2014 11:22:30:

Hmm…sounds a bit familiar – does the Student Engineer Training Centre at RAE Farnborough mean anything to you?

Yes, I went there in 1975 – Andrew

[MM57Participant @mm57]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 23/12/2014 11:51:55:

Posted by Martin Millener on 23/12/2014 11:22:30:

Hmm…sounds a bit familiar – does the Student Engineer Training Centre at RAE Farnborough mean anything to you?

Yes, I went there in 1975 – Andrew

Well I never. As you might (should!) recall, I was there with you…didn't we even do a project together – a FM amplifier as part of a FM tuner frequency display that didn't want to stop being an oscillator IIRC?

Edited By Martin Millener on 23/12/2014 11:58:58

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Engineers have changed, even when I was at sea in the late 70s early 80s

Even back then they couldn't make anything "we don't have any spares" was a common statement

They just plugged bits in, no-one could make anything or use a proper machine tool except a drill

The drill bits were invariably blunt or badly sharpened and "push harder" was the only drilling skill I ever learned in the engine rooms of the 1980s

There was one guy, an engineer from Malta who could use an onboard lathe, I never met him but they would talk about him at smoko from time to time and discuss these mysterious skills he had

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

I have been in Engineering since a child as my Grandfather was a self taught Model Engineer and got us involved with his Steam powered ships and Traction Engine, I enjoyed and hopefully excelled in the fully fitted engineering workshop and Tech Drawing at school, my mother still has some of my made items on show today I then left school and stepped into an Engineering Apprenticeship of four years with Lucas CAV, five at college where I came out with a Full Tech in Mechanical Engineering, from the training dept I went into the Maintenance Engineering Dept, my request, as a Machine tool Fitter where I was taught how to strip and rebuild, repair and maintain all manner of machine tools from Multi Spindle cam operated lathes to precision grinding machines and everything in between, after eight years I became a Reliability engineer, a desk job involved in improving machine life and organising outside companies to refurbish and upgrade our machines particularly from relay logic to PLC's, I then went back to the Works Engineering Dept as one of the Foreman running the Dept where I was sent on courses to gain a knowledge in machine electricals and basic Electronics, the works engineer wanted to make sure that the electricians couldnt pull a fast one over me After sixteen years I decided that I wanted the tools back in my hand and followed my brother into Service engineering and over the years up till now I have installed and serviced all manner of machine tools, done the same thing with car building automated industrial robots and now I work with large industrial walk through washing machines, I've enjoyed every minute because I cant think of anything better than working on a broken machine and walking away knowing that "I" had repaired it/rebuilt it.

 

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 23/12/2014 12:46:49

Edited By martin perman on 23/12/2014 12:47:22

[John Allan Watson BrownParticipant @johnallanwatsonbrown]

Ady1. Totally agree. My ship now has a 'china' clone bridgeport mill and a nice big lathe. When I got there not only had the mill never been used from new (in five years). It had no tooling as nobody knew how to use it. I rescued the milling vice a big 8" vertex clone from the floor of the welding area. The full universal dividing head was stuck in a cupboard with the gears. I have taken some cutting tools on board and made some things to show the Fitter / Welders how do make stuff. M24 stainless steel castle nuts last trip. 8 lobe plastic drive coupling spiders trip before that. First job I had to made a drawbar, 7/16" UNF for the R8 tooling on the mill at my house and take it to the ship. I started in Leith shipyard and a marine fitter apprenticeship. I despair at what will happen at sea when the old guys retire?

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Millener on 23/12/2014 11:58:05:

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 23/12/2014 11:51:55:

Well I never. As you might (should!) recall, I was there with you…didn't we even do a project together – a FM amplifier as part of a FM tuner frequency display that didn't want to stop being an oscillator IIRC?

I thought the name was familiar, I even went and dug out my SETC group photo before posting. I remember the FM frequency display well. I think we drove up to Reading (?) to a specialist distributor with a PO to get some dual gate RF MOSFETs. In retrospect designing and building a high frequency, high gain amplifier was a pretty tough assignment.

Neither of the electronic projects I undertook worked properly, but the mechanical project did; may be I should have taken the hint!

Regards,

Andrew

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Martin Millener on 23/12/2014 11:22:30:

Posted by Lofty76 on 22/12/2014 15:28:55:

When I left school in 1973..I opted for an Aeronautical Apprenticship with The MoD, and qualified five years later with a TEng CEI AMSLAET set of letters to carry about.

Hmm…sounds a bit familiar – does the Student Engineer Training Centre at RAE Farnborough mean anything to you?

No sorry Martin, I was at (then) RNAY Fleetlands the Naval Aircraft Repair Organisation (NARO) subsequently DARA (NOT DERA).

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

When the curse of fiat money was introduced into society it was the death knell for those whose ' place' and hence ' reward' was determined by their true contribution to the human race.

Imagine if this present world, with all its technology, was run on a barter system ,where ' engineers' might stand !

As it is , morally, we are well ahead of lawyers, politicians, bankers, insurance agents, clergy, etc.

I'm happy with that.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I'm studying Mechanical Engineering at Sheffield Hallam Uni. The cost to complete the course and other courses (part time so 12 hours a week for 5 years) since the government removed the cap on education fees is £30,000, and it goes up every year…

No doubt that'll have an interesting effect.

(That's more than my mum and dads mortgage)

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Andrew

Interesting. Sounds as if you were trying to tackle a similar requirement – but using the traditional discrete approach. I was lucky enough to get hold of a partly built ZN1040E 5MHz digital counter / timer / display IC based cct with a 10:1 prescaler (50MHz) and a further Plessey SP631B 700MHz prescaler, from a comms company that had started the project and given up. Got that working up to typically 700MHz or so IIFC. For UHF work I used an OM185 (Phillips) preamplifier which had a three stage design on a thin film hybrid construction. There’s a very similar circuit here (see page 57). For operation below 50MHz I used an NE592 video driver (also Phillips IIRC). After some messing about and laying it out a double sided PCB, it was a useful piece of equipment. This would be the late 70s when I was at school.

Not long after this, I managed to get hold of a development Farnell Instruments MSG800(?) Modular Signal Generator which was the still-born predecessor of the more successful PSG1000 (1GHz) closed loop digital UHF signal generator. I finally got this working from 100kHz to typically 800-850MHz with 1kHz digit resolution. The tricky part was the phase detector – I was able to graft one from the later PSG1000 into it and finally ended up with a very useful piece of kit. Although I was working in the SMPS dept at the time, we shared the same building (and stores!) with the RF boys, which proved handy.The MSG had a variety of modules including AM and FM modulators so you could actually use it as a transmitter when coupled up to a suitable power amp. I used it to drive functional scale model experimental directional aerials at 800MHz, rather than try them out in full scale (these were for HF and VHF). At that frequency, you could simply construct working aerials with copper wire and a soldering iron on the bench top. I mounted them on a motorised revolving base so that the directional gain could be displayed directly on an X-Y scope.

Murray (formerly G8XCN)

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Russ B

I am with you. When I went to uni it was essentially free and we got a grant. Some students even finished with a slight surplus (not me obviously!). Nowadays, graduates are expected to be grateful to work for free ("internships"? outrageous). and struggle to pay off massive debts whilst watching house prices drift even further beyond their reach.

What our generation and the one before it has done to the current generation of students and young graduates is simply disgusting. It almost makes me wonder if they will introduce compulsory euthanasia for over 70s when they finally get their heads above water. You couldn't blame them.

I speak as a parent as well.

Hope you can eventually find a fulfilling and challenging career in engineering ahead of you. To get paid (fairly well) to do a job you enjoy is a fantastic outcome and one many people would be happy with. We are lucky in that respect.

Murray

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