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when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

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fizzy24/01/2013 00:32:54
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1734 forum posts
116 photos

machine vice....just bought one from reputable dealer...looks nice...every single bolt is onlt hand tight...3 thou play in jaws..had to machine it down, now very good...but should we have to????

Edited By fizzy on 24/01/2013 00:33:28

Clive Hartland24/01/2013 08:45:55
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2607 forum posts
40 photos

Join the club Fizzy, mine had jaws that were sat on a piece of dirt and had then been ground off and when i cleaned the recess it gave 0.7 level error. I had to machine the holes and counterbore the hard jaws to get enough movement to get it level again. Also the slop in the slide movement was bad, I had to re-machine the keep bars and make sure they were the same both sides.

Clive

Ady124/01/2013 11:27:17
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3870 forum posts
522 photos

It seems to depend on the individual company and their quality control

I got a pair of shoes a few years ago which were brill for walking about and so I bought exactly the same pair again at renewal time from the same high street outlet, even the sole looked the same

The good pair were made in China

The second pair had 2 split soles in 6 weeks and were made in India

David Clark 124/01/2013 16:54:56
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
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Hi there

Nothing trading standards will do will make a difference.

I bought a vice from Arc Eurotrade and it was extremely accurate and I was very pleased with it.

If people stopped criticising Chinese machinery and spent 5 times the money on quality tooling they would have no need to complain.

regards David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 24/01/2013 16:55:34

I.M. OUTAHERE24/01/2013 17:17:18
1468 forum posts
3 photos

I always wondered if a factory had different grades for their products as i have seen quite a few pieces of equipement that looked identical but some had obvious faults . Maybe some suppliers are buying "A"grade and others "B" & "C" etc .

Gray24/01/2013 17:26:37
1038 forum posts
13 photos

I bought a vice some time ago from Warco, the DH1, I bought the Vee jaws with it and have subsequently purchased the Hard and aluminium soft high jaws.

Despite initial problems with delivery of the soft jaws (which Warco advised me of in good time and were related to quality control issues with the manufacture of the first batch of the soft high jaws) I am extremely satisfied with the vice and the accessory jaws.

In fact, for its size it is by far the best vice I have.

I have no affiliation with Warco, just a very satisfied customer ( and very happy with their customer services and after sales support).

regards

Graeme

David Clark 124/01/2013 18:21:22
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
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The moderation is to make sure this topic remains on subject and does not turn into a slagging off of tool suppliers.

Why don't you post constructive comments rather than destructive ones.

Instead of complaining about cheap tools, just buy expensive ones.

If you can't afford expensive ones, post comments on how to upgrade cheap ones or make your own.

regards David

martin perman24/01/2013 18:53:32
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1877 forum posts
78 photos

Gentlemen,

The old adage "you pays yer money and yer takes your choice" comes to mind, I agree with David you buy cheap so why complain.

Martin P

David Clark 124/01/2013 19:12:34
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles

Yes, we should help beginners to the hobby.

Complaining about equipment rather than helping them to correct it is not helping.

And, no, I have not had complaints from a supplier.

I just don't want this thread getting out of control.

regards David

Lambton24/01/2013 19:13:52
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694 forum posts
2 photos

As I have said several times on this site always return faulty goods to the supplier explaining what is wrong. They will always replace the item or give you your money back as this is their "quality control" system. It stops customers making a fuss and to be convinced that the supplier is a "good "one for doing it.

Having said that we only get what we pay for so if we buy a cheap Far Eastern import we will not get Abwood or Jones and Shipman quality however the item is described.

It would be nice to have a policy statement from the usual suppliers of Far Eastern tools and equipment. So far only Arc Eurotrade have had the courage to do this. So come on you suppliers you want out business so talk to us!

I.M. OUTAHERE24/01/2013 20:04:56
1468 forum posts
3 photos

My supplier has a section for returned items and old display stock that is sold off cheap and i usually head there first to see what bargains i can get .

I have picked up a few items like chucks and vises that took less than an hour to fix and cost 1/3 of the retail price .

They simply replace any items returned with a manufacturing fault then chuck it out the back usualy with a tag stating the problem and of course the reduced price .

I have an asian made workshop as buying anything else was just too expensive and even second hand gear would have cost way more than new far eastern made gear .

You can get a decent mill ,lathe and tooling for what they ask for a second hand bridgeport !

As long as you have a close look at what you are buying with an open mind as to what you need , what you would be comfortable with customizing to suit your needs then you can save a large sum of cash .

Things like vises are a real lottery particularily the cheaper machine vises , this is why i purchased a screwless vice and it is excellent.

I have a swivelling machine vice that was supplied with my mill and it needed some work to make it nicer to use but nothing that a few hours of tinkering at leisure didn't fix.

Are we not Model Engineers ?

If so get it on the cheap , make it work and use it !

Ian

Stub Mandrel24/01/2013 21:44:17
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4311 forum posts
291 photos
1 articles

I have just bought a new Nikon bridge camera.

In the last few days I have taken full frame, pin sharp photos of robins in the snow, HD quality video of fieldfares thrity yards away and today a picture of the moon nearly filling the frame at 16 mega pixels, the mountains and craters clearly visible in relief around the edge of the shadow. You can get >1:1 zoom without any supplementary lenses.

It equals or exceeds the performance of my ancient Pentax SP1000 in every way (I'm comparing with hi-res scanned slides). The build quality appears excellent, it's user friendly, light and a joy to use. The optics (a 13 element zoom with 26:1 range) exceed the quality of the sensor. I can photograph things I can't see because they are too small or too far away.

I got it, ex-display, for £78.

Neil

My point?

Made in China.

Bazyle24/01/2013 22:27:13
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5490 forum posts
207 photos

Even British factories had (have) 'Friday cars', sloppy workers and just errors. Someone has to get these.

I don't know about hardware but complex consumer electronics like TVs have a typical 1% early life failure, with the quality brands stuggling to achieve 0.5%. That means dozens of forum members must have had a duff something or other this month. So we should expect a regular if lower fault rate in our modelling stuff. This is also one reason for not buying a lathe that relies on a speed controller.

Brian Warwick24/01/2013 22:37:07
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30 forum posts

Hi, I am a newbie’s and no expert on Far East tools BUT I do purchase goods from the Far East and have done so for over twenty years and can assure you all that the Far East is more than capable of very high standards, just like Europe is capable of manufacturing junk.

It’s absolutely nothing to do with where it’s manufactured but the cost the end user is prepared to pay. >>

Don’t blame the manufacturer if you are mis-sold goods or purchase a sub standard product, if you buy goods that do not meet the specification described then its simple RETURN IT.

You have statutory rights and all reputable suppliers will replace faulty good as their business depends upon repeat sale, if you have any doubt about the supplier then pay with a credit card and you will have even more power on your side.

I agree its right to inform fellow enthusiasts of pitfalls but to make general statement like, Far East or Indian manufactured goods are rubbish is totally misleading after all almost all leading brand have goods manufactured there as well.

 

Edited By Brian Warwick on 24/01/2013 22:50:56

Andrew Johnston24/01/2013 22:44:45
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5674 forum posts
656 photos
Posted by SLOTDRILLER on 24/01/2013 20:04:56:

Are we not Model Engineers ?

Errr, actually no, that's I bought an expensive machine vice. I don't have to worry about it being square or parallel, it works straight out of the box and multiple parts can be machined with good repeatability. It will easily outlive me too.

Andrew

Chris Trice24/01/2013 23:59:36
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1362 forum posts
9 photos
Posted by Stub Mandrel on 24/01/2013 21:44:17:

I have just bought a new Nikon bridge camera.

"SNIP"

I got it, ex-display, for £78.

Neil

My point?

Made in China.

To be fair Stub, that's not like for like comparison. The big manufacturers of electrical goods construct and own the factory and have total control over the quality in the Same way Honda buy car plants over here. In many cases, they fit the factory out with state of the art machinery (because the factories tend to be newer) than the factory machinery in Japan (for example). Only the labour cost is cheaper which is why they go there. They have to produce good quality at a good price because it's such a huge market and very competitive. If there was a similar market for milling vices, the quality might be better but with so much product bought in and rebadged from the same suppliers, where's the competition? The main selling point is price but low price comes with its own costs.

_Paul_25/01/2013 01:04:02
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543 forum posts
31 photos

I bought a real turd of a vice from a "cough" reputable and very large machine tool retailer advertised as a precision vice, what utter rubbish in the end the vendor reduced the price to half the advertised one and it now does service on a drill press for rough work.

It looked like a Kurt Anglock but looking like it was as far as it got.....

Here is a very good site on a vice very similar to the one I bought and how the gent rectified some of it's faults **LINK**

Paul

_Paul_25/01/2013 01:05:32
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543 forum posts
31 photos

I bought a real turd of a vice from a "cough" reputable and very large machine tool retailer advertised as a precision vice, what utter rubbish in the end the vendor reduced the price to half the advertised one and it now does service on a drill press for rough work.

It looked like a Kurt Anglock but looking like it was as far as it got.....

Here is a very good site on a vice very similar to the one I bought and how the gent rectified some of it's faults **LINK**

Paul

JasonB25/01/2013 07:36:01
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Moderator
18924 forum posts
2082 photos
1 articles

Alan you do seem to be under the impression that all imported machines need a complete rebuild, My lathe was used straight from the crate and the mill just needed one nut & locknut adjusting and has run since then and both have done quite a bit of work, so best not to generalise. Just the occasional adjust ment of gibs and feednuts which would be the same on any machine

As to a skilled machinist, I have no engineering training save for metalwork O level.

If you care to give what you consider acceptable tollerances on a lathe then I'll see if I can dig out the test sheet for my lathe and we can see how they compare. Say run out of spindle socket and a piece of bar protruding 100mm from the chuck.

Still would like to hear whether you feel beginners would want to pay for the addit meeting these tighter specs as we would have to pay someone to quality check the parts with suitable equipment and swallow the cost of any rejects.

J

J

Lambton25/01/2013 09:04:15
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694 forum posts
2 photos

Stub mandrel, with his post about his Nikon camera, makes the very valid point that some excellent equipment is made in China. I am sure however that Nikon exercise rigid Japanese quality control measures over every stage of production. Certain vital components are most likely made in Japan. The first class reputation of the Nikon brand would not allow them to do otherwise.

The manufacturers of hobby market machine tools and equipment cannot afford to exercise Nikon-like QA systems but there is an awful lot of simple things they can do to ensure a totally acceptable product is made.

My late father, an expert tool maker, always impressed on me that it was just as easy to make things right as to make them wrong. His point being that the same amount of effort was need to make the item in either case. He taut me to plan the work properly, fully understand the drawings/ specification, ensure that I had the most appropriate tools etc. available in good condition and to always "measure twice and cut once". He was talking mainly about making one-offs. Model engineering is mainly about making parts in very small quantities.

When making batches of items it is much easier to get things correct by the use of simple jigs and fixtures for production, gauges for checking quality by non-skilled personnel e.g. go-nogo gauges, ensuring the operators understand the basic quality requirement for the product, adequate final inspect etc. etc.

This is all basic stuff that has been known about since Victorian times so why in 2013 do we still have very basic quality issues with manufactured items regardless of which country they are made in?

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