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What Collet type, 5C or ER25

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Skarven15/05/2011 20:30:40
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Hi,
I'm buying my first lathe and mill (after 50 years of dreams) and I'm looking at a Bernardo Expert 165D with a swing of 330/470mm and length 1000mm.
 
http://www.bernardo.at/index.php?id=62&L=1&openuid=&katid=4&groupid=177&product_id=2922&variation_id=2922
 
I also want a collet system but have no experience with that. I can chose between 5C 3-26mm and an ER25 1-16mm. What is best?
I really do not know what i will use the lathe for, but a steam engine or different kinds of workshop equipment sound pleasing to me
 
The mill will probably be the Bernardo FM50VM
http://www.bernardo.at/index.php?id=62&L=1&openuid=121&katid=4&groupid=170&product_id=3181&variation_id=3181
I have done very little milling and would appreciate any input.
Do I need a cooling system, X-axis power feed, rotary table, dividing head, edge finder or centering indicator.
Chris Trice15/05/2011 22:11:24
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I've got an ER25 set up and sort of wished I'd gone for the next one up which is ER32. The ER system are more versatile since 5C collets are designed to take just the one size per collet where ER ones take a range of sizes but both are good. Whichever you go for, buy good ones or you'll negate the point of buying them in the first place.
 
mgj15/05/2011 22:40:14
1017 forum posts
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Are 5c collets suitable for holding milling cutters?
 
I beleive not but am not certain.
 
ER collets are, definitely, so may be used both in a mill and as ordinary collets in a lathe. They will also hold drills very accurately in tool and cutter grinders - the range facility being very useful.
 
So the probability is that an ER system is better, more versatile bet.
 
--------
Milling. Do you need coolant - yes. Or mostly unless your cutters will be tipped or rapidly disposable. However, you don't need some special pump system - you can start with  simple gravity feed from a 5l can hanging on hte wall. Pumps are better, of course, but not essential.
 
Do you need a power feed. No but it is very nice.
 
Do you need a DRO, no, but it is VERY VERY nice. Some people would say yes.
 
Do you need a dividing head. Yes in time, but a DRO will have a dividing faciltiy which will cope with most requirements, and for the time being unless specifically gear wheels are your interest, (eg clock making) a simple spin indexer will do for most of the rest (cylinder head covers, and anything which requires division of holes of that type.
 
Do you need a rotary table - yes for certain things and when you make them (traction engine expansion links etc) then you will know about it. You can rotary mill rod ends, but you can also make filing buttons on the lathe and do a good a job. Not part of a beginners arsenal, but useful. Buy later.
 
Edge finder - yes, but then they are not expensive.
 
 

Edited By mgj on 15/05/2011 22:43:07

NJH15/05/2011 22:43:43
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Hi Kai
 
All those mill accessories are desirable but maybe not all at once.
My order from your list would be:-
1 Edge finder
2 Rotary table ( which can often double for dividing )
3 X- axis power feed
4 Dividing head
The coolant system should slot in depending on the type of work you intend to do. If you are going to be taking big bits out of steel then it should be near the top. If you are taking small delicate bits out of brass near the bottom.
At the top of the list however would be a collet chuck, a good solid vice and a clamping set.
 
Regards
Norman

Edited By NJH on 15/05/2011 22:44:52

Versaboss15/05/2011 22:57:32
493 forum posts
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Well I see most what I wanted to say has been said already.

My 2cts:

If you want tu use the (ER) collets in the lathe (which has 38 mm spindle bore!) then you take better the largest you can get! ER 25 is a tad too small for this. The same is valid also for the mill.

I don't know these products, but the mill I find a bit 'strange'.It has automatic spindle feeds, which usually are found on heavy drilling machines. A feed in x would be more useful, imho.

It is a pity that a machine like this has a Morse taper spindle. I see you pounding with a heavy lead hammer on the drawbar to release a stubborn taper, as there (usually) is no decent press-off nut on these machines (hope you know what I mean...)

Greetings, Hansrudolf


Andrew Johnston15/05/2011 23:03:28
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Nobody has commented on the centring indicator; do you mean a co-axial centre indicator? If so, then personally I wouldn't bother with one, it's an expensive luxury.
 
But then what do I know, as I've never found the need to use an edge finder either, so that would be bottom of my list.
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
Chris Trice15/05/2011 23:16:18
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MGJ makes a good point in that 5C collets I've only ever seen used on lathes so on balance the ER route seems to be the way to go. They are becoming increasingly popular which in itself, tells a story.
 
 

Edited By Chris Trice on 15/05/2011 23:17:42

Andrew Johnston15/05/2011 23:24:06
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An advantage of 5C collets for work holding in the lathe might be that you can get them in square and hex variants.
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
Chris Trice16/05/2011 00:43:53
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Lathes tend to lend themselves to bigger bores than milling machines. 5C require a relatively large drawtube. Possibly a contributing factor to their non adoption for a milling machine? Not insurmountable but most milling machines use a smaller diameter drawbar.
Skarven16/05/2011 06:49:57
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Hi, and thank you for the many useful answers.
 
1: From the answers here I will go for the ER collet system. Chris Trice recommend the ER 32, Bernardo seems to offer only ER-25 for the D1-4 (whatever that is). The ER-32 cover up to 3/4in while the ER-25 goes to 16mm (5/8in ?). It might be possible to get an D1-4 ER-32 adapter from somewhere else. The ER-25 fixture is is only 65 euros while the 5C one is a 190 euros. The fact that you can use the ER's in the milling machine also speaks in their favor.
 
As for the mill, I have already decided to get a DRO, but I'm not shure if I need the 3rd axis.
I am also considering different mill, the Tongli ZX 45 Super. This mill has an ISO 30 spindlecone, which is better, according to Versaboss. In addition is has a lot of equipment standard:
Mill chuck, 100mm vice, reduction ISO 30 - MT3, clamping kit, x-axis power feed, cooling system...
It also has a lower price than the Bernardo, even if they look mostly identical.
But it has only 2-axis DRO. Can I mount this for the 3rd axis myself later on, or do the third axis integrate so intimately with the x and y that you have to change it to a 3-axis system?
 
Andrew Johnston:
The centering indicator is not that expensive, 89 euros, and with little experience I think it will make it easier to get a good accuracy. Same for the edge finder witch is 58 euros
 
link to Centering indicator:
http://www.bernardo.at/index.php?id=65&L=1&katid=6&groupid=85&variation_id=698&product_id=698&suche=32-1070

Again Thank You all for the answers to my questions.
Yours
Kai
 
 
 

Andrew Johnston16/05/2011 08:29:42
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Hi Kai,
 
That does seem quite cheap for a centering indicator. It depends upon where it is made, you may find it instructive to do a search for co-axial indicators on:
 
 
If were to buy a coaxial centering indicator I would look at Blake from Long Island Indicator or, closer to home, the Centro from Haimer in Germany. In practical terms I find I can get centres close enough for my purposes using a length of precision ground steel in a collet and a cigarette paper. But each to his own.
 
Off topic: Can I assume that you are Austria? I see that Bernardo have a factory in Linz; lovely city, it's just unfortunate that both times I have visited we have been cursed with travel nightmares.
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
mgj16/05/2011 08:35:08
1017 forum posts
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A D1-4 to ER32 is easy enough to come by. Yyou will need a backplate as well.
 
A DRO - I have a hybrid system - I have a proper DRO on the table on 2 axes, and a digital indicator on the z axis. I had already fitted the indicator so I thought it wuld be OK. It is, but I really wish I had all mu ino on one panel, and most DROs will use the 3rd axis for co-ordinate milling in 3 d. Which is not often used, but useful when you do want it.
 
Doing it again on a budget, I'd fit a 3 axis control box, and then I could add the scale later. I have now ot buy a 3 axis box and a scale which is silly, considering a 3 axis box is only about £20 more expensive than a 2 axis one. Bad decision on my part.
 
I agree about the centring indicator. I had not looked at them before, and I'm off to buy one - very sharpish.
 
Edge finder - Starret make a very good spring type for about £10. I wouldn't bother with anything cleverer than that.

Edited By mgj on 16/05/2011 08:36:12

Skarven16/05/2011 09:24:36
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Hi,
Andrev Johnston:
I had a quick look and a search on the practicalmachinist and I must say that my first thought was that I have a lot to learn here!!!! On the other hand, this centering indicator from Bernardo was only 89 euro, so I'll try that one first.
Off Topic. No, I'm not in Austria, but I think these machines come from there.
I'm a Norwegian from the middle part of Norway.
 
mgj:
I tried ebay for a D1-4 to ER3, but could not find anything. It's so easy to order everything at once from the same supplier, that I'll try the ER25 for now.
I'm also convinced that it is better to go for a 3-axis integrated system at once.
There will probably be some limitations in a hybrid system, and the mill with 3-axes only had the problem with the MT 4 morse cone spindle. Everything else was just as I wanted it. I think maybe I can live with that.
 
My order now looks something like this. Tell me if you have any additions or comments.
 
Expert 165D w/3-axis digital Readout (29675,00NKr) e 3390,-

Soft solid Jaws DSI-DK11-160 21-0853 e 38,-
Live center with 7 interchangable tips 22-1041 e 118,-
40 pos.tool post & Multifix E, 4 tips 23-1001 e 395,-
6 station revolving tailstock turret 22-1071 e 96,-
12 pcs. set metric size center drills 41-1070 e 28,-
Bernardo coolant fluid TURN for lath 5l 54-1202 e 59,-
Machine Mount MS-80 53-2000 e 29,- * 4 ?
Indx carbide turning tool set, 12 mm 44-3084 e 115,-
Digital indicator 32-1005 e 20,-
Universal-Magnetmessstativ 32-1055 e 49,-
ER-25 Collet Fixture direct mount D1-4 22-1080 e 65,-
ER-25 Collet round hole collets 26-1022 e 130,-

bits for 44-3084 e ?




Mill FM 50 VM with 3-axis digital e 2910,-

Stand BF3 with chip tray 56-1015 e 215,-
Coolant pump 11 liter 400V 51-1000 e 188,-
Coolant for mill
Deluxe clamping kit 52 pcs 14mm M12 28-1001 e 71,-
Hor/Vert rotary table 8inch 27-1001 e 329,-
Mill chuck set OZ MT 4 / 3-25mm 15pcs 26-1007 e 265,-
2-way tilting vice PTS-100 28-2033 e 205,-
20 pcs HSS Tin-coated end mills, 3-20mm 42-1020 e 69,-
10 pcs Tin-ctd roughing end mills 6-25mm42-1016 e 109,-
Taper shank drills MT2/3 9pcs 14.5-30mm 41-1050 e 79,-
Boring head combo 75mm incl boring bars 25-1020 e 215,-
Edge finder with indicator lamp SOE20S 32-1060 e 58,-
Centering indicator 32-1070 e 89,-

Kai
mgj16/05/2011 10:52:27
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Kai - you won't go direct D1-4 to ER32.
 
Warco/chronos/Chester all do what they call ER32 collet chucks. You then get a separate back plate,like any chuck, and put the collet chuck on the backplate. I would try to go for the ER32. They cost little more and you can fit a lot more in there.
 
The coolant pump - at 400V - is that for 3 phase, or do you want a single phase pump for home use?
 
do you want a 6 station tailstock turret. fine for repetition work, but I doubt many of us have really been lost without one!
 
A digital indicator -thats a dial indicator? The digital ones are good - I have one by Mitutoyo. Nowhere near as easy to use for centering etc as an ordinary needle type. Analogue needle type is much more useful, and probably cheaper! Get a good Mitutoyo needle DTI - far better.
 
I don't see a drill chuck for your lathe tailstock/morse taper. I'd rather have that than a tailstock turret. Nor for the mill. Thats a drilling chick, not a milling chuck. Nor if you have 4MT tapers, do I see any adapters to hold the MT2/MT3 drills, unless the lathe came with an MT4-3 adapater , in which case you will need an MT3-2 adapter plust a tool ejector wedge, which will serve for both head and tailstock - I guess your tailstock is 3MT..
 
A 75mm boring head. Very nice, and I have bought one, but its not something you are likely to need when you start. If you wanted to save some money, you could easily wait for that. As a modeller, it is not something you will need that often because usually you could do the same work in a 4 jaw chuck in the lathe. But yes, eventualy they are nice to have - but not essential for a beginner.
 
 
John Olsen16/05/2011 11:06:04
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I presume the lathe comes with three jaw, four jaw, and fixed and travelling steadies? Also if you want to do any work between centres, make sure you acquire or even make a few drive dogs. Maybe also a few ordinary high speed steel tools to get the feel of things before getting into the carbide tips...which are great, but can be unforgiving of learners. But overall that seems like a pretty comprehensive set of kit. I went for ER 32 colletts recently myself, but then I already had a set of ER16 for a smaller machine, so it made sense to jump up the extra size.
 
My own family came from around Trogstad, but that was some time ago. (1872)
 
regards
John Olsen
Versaboss16/05/2011 11:54:11
493 forum posts
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Maybe money is not so important here, but why get an OZ collet chuck for the mill when you have ER for the lathe? Granted the max. dia. is a bit larger than ER32, but do you need endmills over 20 mm diameter? For that you better get a shell mill holder and a 40 or 50 mm shell mill cutter.

The set of roughing end mills in all diameters is an unnecessary luxury. A 10 and a 16 mm is all you need. The other set - I think I bought a similar one when I knew less than today - it is not first quality. I hardly use these now.

I have the same center indicator; I think it is quite good for the price, but I don't use it each year! You can center the rotary table with a well-fitting peg in the central hole and your milling chuck.

6-station turret? Do you want repetition jobs; 100s of pieces? I use a self built one, but do these (payed) repetition jobs!

Just a few thoughts; maybe even more could float up.

E.G. I would get as much as possible from CTC tools Hongkong, although you find it easier to order from one place. Super quality and lowest prices you can get (just a happy customer; ER collets, indexable turning tools etc.)

Greetings, Hansrudolf


Skarven16/05/2011 19:24:32
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93 forum posts
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Hi,
 
mgj
Principally I agree with the you on the ER-32 collet chucks, but it is very easy for me now to go for the ER-25 that is offered by the same company that sell me the machines. The main thing for me now is to get something that I can use out of the box. Later on I will probably hower over the ebay looking for something better/cheaper, but I want to be able to start using this equipment as soon as it is in the house. 50 years is a long time to wait
 
The coolant pump - at 400 volts, I really don't know if it's a single or 3-phase. We have 3-phase 230 Volts in our house. I'm installing a transformer of 3.5kw 230 to 400 volts to run these machines, so it really doesn't matter.
 
The 6 station tailstock: I completely agree with you, I would probably not be lost without it, but I have done some lathe work, and if you make 4 of the same kind that need drilling, chamfering, tapping ... it's a nice to have feature. And as a family man that once in a lifetime use some money on myself, I think the aproximately 100 euros is well spent
 
The digital indicator: Again I agree with you. Being a programmer/computer man I like the Analogue type. The entry in the list is actually wrong. The text says digital, but the parts number is for an analog one.

The Drill chuck for 3 - 16 mm is a standard accessory for the mill, but You are right, there is no MT4-3 or MT3-2 adapter there.
 
75mm boring head. I will wait for that. It seems I can get one a lot cheaper from other sources, and I will probably not need it for a while.
 
John Olsen
The lathe comes with a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, 250mm face plate, fixed and traveling steadies.
For the drive dogs and high speed tools, I actually have a few after my father ho worked with these things and wanted a workshop of his own. He never got it, the economic situation was a little bit different in the years before 1971, when he died, 50 years old.
He also left me quite a few other tools and a burning desire to work with these things.
Could it be Trøgstad that your family came from, The o here having a slash over it?
 
Hansrudolf
The OZ collet chuck is mostly there because it was listed in the optional accessories, but I see your point.
 
The mills is there for the same reason, and you might say the same for the 6-station turret, although i see some use for that.
 
I had a look at CTC tools Hongkong, and I agree, I could get many of these things cheaper there, in the future I will, but right now I'm eager to get something working as soon as possible
 
Again thank you for all these for a beginner invaluable comments and inputs.
 
Kai
JasonB16/05/2011 19:47:11
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Myself I would go for a 5C chuck for the lathe and ER32 chuck on the mill. To keep costs down I would also get a 5C to ER32 adaptor, that way you can just have one set of ER32 for all the round stock below 20mm and then buy 5C collets for the larger sizes and hex/sq if you feel the need. Then at a later date add the 5C collets in the smaller sizes you commonly use.
 
On the DRO question at least get a 3 axis readout even if you just buy two scales for now as it will be easier to just plug in the z axis when you want to at a later date.
 
Can't see the point in a tailstock turret.
 
J

Edited By JasonB on 16/05/2011 19:48:56

John Olsen17/05/2011 07:13:56
1256 forum posts
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Well, yes, the o should have a slash but not having a clue how to find such a thing on this keyboard...
 
Cooland pumps are sometimes a single phase motor, but connected between two of the three phases, and so having a higher voltage rating to suit. Or else they may be connected between one phase and neutral, or may even be a small three phase motor, which is not so good for converting the machine to VFD.
 
regards
John
bricky17/05/2011 21:53:46
584 forum posts
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Bricky
I would have an auto lock chuck for the milling machine ,as I have had at critical moments downward creep of the cutter using ER32 collets disconcerting I can assure you.I have just bought a Posilock milling chuck
regards Frank

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