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This is where all the off topic discussion about aeroplanes should go

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Jon Lawes19/06/2021 21:01:57
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657 forum posts

There is a serious design flaw if it is easy to make that mistake (especially when you consider the pressure that operator is under).

Robert Atkinson 219/06/2021 21:50:21
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1091 forum posts
20 photos

Not really a flaw, more of a compromise. There are limited options for where the locking pins can go. The engineer is supposed to be skilled and qualified on the aircraft type. The designer will take thi into accound when deciding what level of "fool-proofing" is required. As gear locking pins are not a flight safety issue it will have a fairly low priority. You can't make a whole fleet of aircraft potentially heavier (burns more fuel) and more expensive just on the off-chance that a skilled person makes a mistake.
There are much more important items that have similar compromises. There hav been a number of cases of A320 series aircraft taking off without cowlings latched properly. This is despite the flight crew checking them as well as the maintence staff. They painted the latchs to make them more visible, still happened, the put a spring "pusher" inot the system so the two halces would not join just under gravity and it still happens.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422eb8840f0b6134600008f/dft_avsafety_pdf_501061.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aircraft-accident-report-1-2015-airbus-a319-131-g-euoe-24-may-2013#download-full-report

I'll wait for the accident report before I comment on the actual incident.

This stuff is part of my day job.

Robert G8RPI.

Buffer19/06/2021 23:01:58
299 forum posts
135 photos

Jon

Aircraft are covered in flaws. Look at the Helios crash where Boeing used the same horn for a take off configuration warning on the ground as a decompression in the air. It never occurred to them that a pilot in the cruise might hear the horn and think its a faulty config warning when actually the aircraft is loosing cabin pressure. That killed everyone on the Helios and it's not a one off. It very nearly happened to easy jet and probably countless other times. Airbus 320 have a park brake that is only 12 inches away from the engine start switch and its a rotary knob that turns the same way. As engines are started during pushback guess how many people have set the park brake while being pushed back and nearly killed the tug driver when the nose gear comes through his windscreen. The list of cock ups like this would fill a book.

Any way Rob is quite right to wait for the report but here's some pure speculation.

20210619_223832.jpg

Robert Atkinson 220/06/2021 11:26:20
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1091 forum posts
20 photos

It gets worse, this has happened before and there is an FAA Airworthiness Directive to correct it

http://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/OVER/B787/2019-23-07.pdf

Cost is about $2000 per aircraft.

Also see

https://www.ukfsc.co.uk/wp-content/public_pdfs/Safety_Alerts/ASRS-report-B787-Nose-landing-gear-pin-installation-issue-Jan-2018.pdf

The big failure will be if BA did not notifiy their staff of this issue.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 20/06/2021 12:31:10

Robert Atkinson 220/06/2021 15:12:33
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1091 forum posts
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On an engineering note, the fix for this may not be as simple as just fitting a bung in the end of the hollow pivot pin. This type of pin is hollow to save weight and are typically highly stressed. Because of this they are susceptable to fatigue cracking that can originate in corrosion pits. Simply sticking a bung in the hole can cause this kind of corrosion and even when done carefully could drive a requirement for additional inspections or other maintenence. With hindsight, yes you could say changing the size of one of the holes to make this impossible would be a good idea, but without hindsight it would be hard to spot the issue. A zonal analysis might of picked it up but it would require a lot of imagination and by that time in the design process It would be hard to justify a design change for sometihg that is "only" Major severity, not a flight safety hazard and mitigated by the task being performed by trained personell.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 20/06/2021 15:14:26

Lee Rogers20/06/2021 18:11:07
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147 forum posts

Anyone on the site into Homebuilt aircraft / private flying? I have a Turbulent and a Bolkow 208c that are both in spares or rebuild condition if your looking for a project.

Robert Atkinson 220/06/2021 18:49:23
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1091 forum posts
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No room or time for a project, but a Bolkow 208 was the first aircraft I certified independently as a new qualified licenced aircraft engineer.
I also wound Richard Noble up no end by suggesting the ARV Super 2 looked like a 208 devil

Robert G8RPI.

ChrisB20/06/2021 21:06:31
648 forum posts
207 photos
Posted by Buffer on 19/06/2021 23:01:58:

Jon

Airbus 320 have a park brake that is only 12 inches away from the engine start switch and its a rotary knob that turns the same way. As engines are started during pushback guess how many people have set the park brake while being pushed back and nearly killed the tug driver when the nose gear comes through his windscreen. The list of cock ups like this would fill a book.

Any way Rob is quite right to wait for the report but here's some pure speculation.

I have not seen the accident reports but mistaking the parking brake for the mode selector is a lame excuse if you ask me. Had it been mistaken for the rudder trim switch which lives between the mode selector and the parking brake would have been more plausable. The parking brake is a pull and turn switch so its not really the same.

It's so easy to blame the aircraft but in reality it's over confidence and non adherance to procedures the main cause for these mishaps.

Buffer20/06/2021 21:32:43
299 forum posts
135 photos

It probably has been mistaken for the rudder trim many times I suspect but that wont put a nose gear through a tug windscreen so we probably dont hear about it. You can imagine the report cant you. Pilot trims rudder during push back. Big deal. It's so easy to blame the pilots but in reality it could be flight 4 on day 5 of a busy summer, lots of minimum rest and roster changes aircraft swaps etc. Funny I've not seen it on a 737, maybe all the over confident non conforming pilots fly Airbus. Or maybe it's because the 737 you need to push your feet down first then pull back the park brake lever next to your arse and the start switch is on the ceiling.

Jon Lawes20/06/2021 22:56:56
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657 forum posts

This thread always seems to turn into Career Top Trumps, with bonus points for clanging name drops.

V8Eng20/06/2021 23:13:49
1634 forum posts
32 photos

As an occasional airline passenger (pre pandemic) all this has just about put me off ever flying again and made me glad the flight paths are not directly over my house!

Speedy Builder521/06/2021 06:46:34
2416 forum posts
191 photos

I have two left hand drive cars and one right hand drive - Do I get confused as to where the gear stick is or the ignition key/switch etc. You bet your life I do, but never seen any manufacturer issue tech bulletins as to how to avoid these confusions. So far never confused between the diesel ones and the petrol but .....!

Bob

Robert Atkinson 221/06/2021 11:02:36
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1091 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by Jon Lawes on 20/06/2021 22:56:56:

This thread always seems to turn into Career Top Trumps, with bonus points for clanging name drops.

If you don't like it, why are you reading it?

Robert G8RPI

JA21/06/2021 11:28:53
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1228 forum posts
73 photos
Posted by Jon Lawes on 20/06/2021 22:56:56:

This thread always seems to turn into Career Top Trumps, with bonus points for clanging name drops.

I am trying to work out what a clanging name drop is if only to claim more points.

JA

mike T21/06/2021 11:37:02
186 forum posts
1 photos

There was at 40,000 feet with nothing on the clock but the makers name.

Suddenly I heard this laud clanging noise and the makers name had disappeared.................

M

Nigel McBurney 125/06/2021 14:00:07
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926 forum posts
3 photos

Myself and a friend were in Petersfield Hampshire on this last wednesday, we heard a hell of a roar from a fairly low flying aircraft and along came a VC10, fuselage was painted but could not make out any detail as it almost directly overhead, a quick Google indicated that the last one had flown several years ago,but an airworthy VC10 was possibly up for sale last year.It was so nice to see and hear one of these aircraft again, We are not that far from Lasham airodrome so does anyone know if is based there,or going for maintenance as they used to maintain them there a long time ago.

Richard S225/06/2021 14:30:39
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220 forum posts
129 photos

VC!0 eh!. Envious of your experience. Loved the sound of those 4 Conways crackling on a cold clear frosty morning at Gatwick in the 70s/80s. Lovely spacious Flt Deck with a panoramic view. But probably a contributor to my having to live with Tinnitus now.

Speedy Builder525/06/2021 15:48:21
2416 forum posts
191 photos

As an apprentice at Weybridge, I was lucky enough to "Drive" one. We were taking one out to the engine test park. It was shunted up against the 4 huge "Cullham Mufflers". My job was to sit in the captains's seat with headphones on, not to tough anything until the order came for "Brakes On". - I only had a single test flight in the Vickers Commercial 10 - Stall tests over the Bristol Channel !! Ouuupps, any paper bags on board ?

Incidentally, the BAC 1-11 was the 1st BAC design but the 11th Vickers Commercial (BAC 1-11). Although never built, there were projects for the BAC 2-11 and BAC 3-11.

Bob

martin perman25/06/2021 16:12:21
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2009 forum posts
83 photos

the only two "likely" to return to flight are at Bruntingthorpe, one has its engines and other parts removed, the other one is able to run up its engines but word is the only way they will leave Bruntithorpe is on trucks particularly as the owner of the site is reclaiming the use of the runway for storage.

None of the vintage aviation press have mentioned any attempt to put one back in the sky.

Martin P

RMA25/06/2021 18:59:36
282 forum posts
4 photos
Posted by martin perman on 25/06/2021 16:12:21:

the only two "likely" to return to flight are at Bruntingthorpe, one has its engines and other parts removed, the other one is able to run up its engines but word is the only way they will leave Bruntithorpe is on trucks particularly as the owner of the site is reclaiming the use of the runway for storage.

None of the vintage aviation press have mentioned any attempt to put one back in the sky.

Martin P

Russian copy maybe?

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