This is where all the off topic discussion about aeroplanes should go
|Howard Jones||25/12/2010 05:11:28|
|70 forum posts|
aerolite 306 (in australia the equivalent is selleys 308) is no longer seen as suitable for aircraft. if you apply to much formic acid there is some remaining after the joint is put together and over time this eats the wood just beside the joint leading to it failing.
resorcinol formaldehyde glue has something like 70 years in existence and still going strong.
believe it or not casein is still ok for use in hot dry environments.
me? I use epoxy.
|John Olsen||25/12/2010 08:17:58|
|1240 forum posts|
One of the early problems with glued constuction was not the glue as such, it was the way the plywood was made, involving pressing. This had the effect of crushing the hollow fibres of the wood at the surface, so that the glue did not penetrate significantly. The solution to that was to sand the surface to reopen it so the glue would penetrate.
I think it was A.C. Kermode in one of his books who referred to finding out about a person in charge of maintenance of some wooden aircraft who had come from a motor garage background. He would have all the aircraft lined up each morning and hosed down.
My sister and I built a kayak (stick and canvas style) in the mid sixties, using a resorcinol glue intended for marine applications. It served well for several years, then the boat ended up sitting in dry storage for some time. During the eighties I set about repairing it, and found that the joints had gone brittle, it was dead simple to dismantle the boat and then reassemble it, cleaning up the joint surfaces and regluing with epoxy. oops, I have drifted off onto boats instead of aircraft...
|Ian Abbott||25/12/2010 15:18:40|
279 forum posts
I've uploaded some photos to an album. The quality isn't that great, but they are all scans from old slides.
The three "models" were in some kind of aircraft scrapyard near Belvoir Castle in Lincolnshire in about 1975. I was told that they were from the Battle of Britain film, but the Spitfire has "Invasion Stripes". Does this count as Model Engineering?
Most of the others were from the Rolls Royce airfield at Hucknall during air displays. The Wallace and the Zlins are at Tollerton airfield in about 1969. Before the show, they actually let me fly the top Zlin, under strict supervision of course. Incredibly responsive, breathing made it move around.
Standing under the Lightning when it stood on its tail was awsome. This summer, I stood under a Tornado doing the same thing.... Yes, it is louder.
|Cornish Jack||25/12/2010 20:49:18|
|1219 forum posts|
Hastings, Beverleys??? Para dispatching in the first, crewing on the second, still have post quad Centaurus deafness and memories of pumping top-up oil at 8000' plus en route!!! The mass of Bevs at Nicosia was part of a big para exercise with similar numbers of Hastings and gave (for me) the unique experience of calling downwind to be given "No. 14, call Finals"!! It was also the occasion of the 'getaway' Bev which jumped the towbar with no-one on the brakes and savaged one of its brethren further down the taxy track!
While I can understand the general enthusiasm for some of the more eye-popping aviation antics, having for a number of years operated S&R helos, I have had to recover the less amusing results of those who got it wrong - and the majority, even the best, do, eventually
|Bill Pudney||25/12/2010 21:57:43|
|606 forum posts|
I've just watched all the TSR2 clips, it makes you want to weep!! A couple of aviation tales tinted with politics.
Prior to the infamous "No more manned aircraft" decision in 1957, the UK Minister of Defence was visited by his equivalent from the USA, who managed to convince the Brit that there would be "no more manned aircraft". Then within a day or so of the announcement in Parliament representatives of Lockheed appear in Hayes, where the Fairey Aviation establishment was based. They certainly wern't there for the good of their health, they were there to recruit the design team of the FD2, which they largely did. Coincidence, I don't think so.
Harold Wilson and his gang of Bandits....The announcement was made at 3pm that TSR2 was to be cancelled. When we arrived at work THE NEXT DAY the wreckers were in cutting up the jigs and fixtures . I am usually saddened when somebody dies, but when I heard that Harold Wilson had shuffled off his mortal coil, I'm afraid I stood up and applauded.
There is little doubt that the British Aircraft industry needed sorting out, but obliterating it wasn't the way.
Happy New Year
|Ramon Wilson||25/12/2010 22:39:03|
1283 forum posts
Aaah! Respite at last anyone else manage to getaway?
Sky Master - thanks Ian.
Now that big exercise in Cyprus you remember wouldn't be in 1963 would it CJ?
We actually flew out to the island for it by Beverley - four stops if I remember right - Orange in France, El Adem, Luqa and Nicosia. I can't recall the camp we were at but the airfield we drew chutes at had loads of Javelins.
Exercise Solinus 2 in November was very big indeed. A brigade execrcise and including the TA we were told the biggest drop since the war but how true that was remains unknown. There were an awful lot of people in the air at the same time though - quite visible even at two in the morning. I can still see the Hastings from the next wave that cleared me by what looked like a couple of hundred feet above. Oh dear that was a long time ago - I was just eighteen. BTW I think it's the same exercise that Billy Connolly used to relate about on his earlier shows - he was TA too. Small beer though compared to those doing it for real not that much earlier eh?
It sounds as if you are of the same time and worked later on S&R - does the name Ray Hodge-Neal mean anything - just some one I worked with who did the same. Would I be correct in thinking the S&R world was a fairly small one?
Thanks for the memory jolt - can't remember what I was doing this morning but that time is as clear as a bell. Definitely an age thing
Regards - Ramon
|3549 forum posts|
I watched John Derry at Farnborough the day before the DH110 took his life and some of the spectators, I still have the racing cycle that belonged to one of those spectators, by coincidence I was looking for such a bike and I had the fortune (or was it misfortune?) to see the advert placed by his parents. Also remember Jan Zurakowsky, with the fully rocket laden Meteor leaving two holes burnt in the cloud on the way up in a near vertical climb and then a vertical flat spin on the way down, wing tip over wing tip.
The Vulcan did a most spectacular take off one year, down the runway, climbed , levelled early and tucked her tail down and under, seamingly near the runway surface then as near as straight up as makes no difference for such a large craft.
|Stub Mandrel||26/12/2010 18:00:57|
4315 forum posts
so the 'they cut up the jigs first' story is true then!
Kwil if I recall correctly the Vulcan was ticketed for inverted flight.
|3549 forum posts|
|Not so sure about inverted, certainly there was a need to "toss" deliver and hence the rating to pull up fast and roll over through partial inversion to return in the direction from which you had arrived might be the case.|
|Andrew Johnston||26/12/2010 21:33:42|
6574 forum posts
The DH110 crash happened some years before I was born, but I have heard about it first hand, as my father was at Farnborough on that day. He was also working at de Havillands at the time, at Hatfield, so there were some ramifications at work. Sad as it may seem, in the 50's the test pilot was a derring-do hero, and unfortunately a number were killed while pushing the boundaries. Some of my parents friends were killed in the crash of the prototype BAC1-11, after which the phenomenon of deep stall was more closely investigated. These days, with the advances in the theory and practise of computational fluid dynamics test flying is less of a risk than it used to be.
Coincidentally, at the time of the DH110 crash, my grandfather was also working for de Havillands. I assume that he wasn't directly affected by the crash as, having been chief draughtsman at Airspeeds which was taken over by de Havillands in 1951, he was working near Portsmouth. This brings us neatly back to model engineering, as Nevil Shute Norway, one of the founders of Airspeeds, was a well known model engineer.
|Ian S C||27/12/2010 08:38:16|
7468 forum posts
|I remember seeing the Vulcan at RNZAF Ohakea, after damaging its undercarage at the opening of Wellington airport, it looked a bit like a slightly crumpled dart. It damaged one of the main U/C legs. The turbine agricultural aircraft(there's more than just the Fletcher), like to put on a display at fly ins. open up hold it down a fraction longer than usual, yhen pull up near vertical with a full load (water), then either a spraying demo, or a dump, used either for emergency lightening of the load, or sometimes in fire fighting.Ian S C|
|Andrew Johnston||27/12/2010 12:10:53|
6574 forum posts
Howard: Yes, I did come across some notes on the internet while checking the facts in my post on gluing, saying the Australia had banned the use of Aerolite. However, both Aerolite and Aerodux are widely available in the UK for use on wooden aircraft. Notes from the LAA (used to be the PFA) indicate that they are happy with Aerolite, Aerodux or some of the expoxies that are more common in the US for wooden aircraft structures.
In a similar vein I've dug out a research paper from my files by the UK Building Research Establishment on the loss of strength with time of glued joints. The basic summary is that all glued joints lose strength over time, but that resorcinol and phenol based resins are better than urea based glues. Oddly enough, for close fitting joints, casein was generally better than urea and phenol resins, especially in the wet!
John: I agree, it is always essential to sand plywood before gluing. I also thought it was to do with clearing the crushed fibre ends. According to the LAA though, it's mainly to remove the waxy press release agents. Either way, if you don't do it, you'll get a weak joint, and a self-dis-assembly kit.
|Cornish Jack||27/12/2010 14:24:43|
|1219 forum posts|
Re. the mass airdrop - no, not '63 (I was suffering the hardships of a bachelor's life in Bangkok, at that time!!) 'the one I referred to was a few years earlier in '59. Same sort of deal and same routing to get there. We were lead Bev for the drop with the Hastings ahead of us and I have a VIVID mental picture of the last Hastings 'losing it' on the run-in. He must have got into the one ahead's slipstream and there wasn't much control leeway when you were configured for the drop. The paras must have been 'stood up' by then so they probably had an interesting few moments, as well !!
Your mate's name doesn't ring any bells but the S&R world was quite well spread out and I spent six of the fourteen helo' years instructing.
Most definitely an age thing- sorry, what was I saying?
|Ian S C||28/12/2010 09:27:24|
7468 forum posts
|See the Mustang in my album, its a 2 seat aircraft, and for $NZ 2000, you can have about half an hour. The pasenger on the flight in the photo is a mate of mine, a local Piper PA-18 owner, the piper will never be the same. A flight of full aerobatics,concluded with a high speed dive from 5000ft, and a low level run over the air strip at something over400mph. Thats what his wife and son got him for his 70th birthday. Ian S C|
|Geoff Theasby||31/12/2010 11:40:11|
|613 forum posts|
If you are into illustrations of aircraft, etc, have a look at "British Piston Aero Engines and their aircraft" by Alec Lumsden. It contains some great cutaway drawings of engines.
|371 forum posts||With regard to the splendid illustrations in the Eagle, the Eagle Annual of the Cutaways is still available on Amazon.|
|Ramon Wilson||31/12/2010 18:01:04|
1283 forum posts
I just looked for 'aircraft cutaways' to see if I could find the beautifully drawn ones I remember that were in a magazine of my youth - perhaps 'Flight' or 'Flying Review'. I always wondered where the artist actually began.
If you are interested in cutaways then a quick Google will probably surprise and certainly delight you
Bill(CJ), - a couple of years or so before my time but I would have a fair guess that that would have been Ex Solinus One!
Your memory of the wayward Hastings with the guy's 'stood up' reminds me of a tense night over Salisbury Plain in a very turbulent Beverley when - fully kitted up - we went round five times at action stations I was well toward the back of the stick in between two quite large mates. Each time the red came on the stick moved forward only to be moved back again by the dispatchers. With the aircraft heaving and lurching the stick gradually 'compressed' with those at the back chomping at the bit and not responding. Being a little chap you could say I felt the pressure come on as I was gradually squeezed between 'Nick' and 'Spud' - when the green finally came on it was like the proverbial cork or maybe even a boil - it certainly didn't take long for the lot of us to clear the aircraft
Anyone else out there ex Regt or Brigade?
Best wishes for the New Year one and all
Regards - Ramon
|612 forum posts|
Hybrid air vehicle gets 300million dollar deal.
|1696 forum posts|
Thunderbirds are go!
Sorry I just couldn't resist that one, it reminds me so much of Thunderbird 2.
Edited By V8Eng on 04/01/2011 20:54:12
|Stub Mandrel||07/01/2011 20:06:00|
4315 forum posts
certainly there was a need to "toss" deliver and hence the rating to pull up fast and roll over through partial inversion to return in the direction from which you had arrived might be the case.
An immelman turn - still pretty impressive in a plane you could play football on!
The name on the tip of your tongue is no doubt Leslie Ashwell Wood - I was a bit afetr the Eagle, but i read many of the old annuals as a boy.
Edited By Stub Mandrel on 07/01/2011 20:09:59
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