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This is where all the off topic discussion about aeroplanes should go

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John Olsen22/12/2010 09:08:41
928 forum posts
86 photos
1 articles
So here is a thread where all the off topic aviation discussion can go. To kick things off , the members of the steam section at Motat in Auckland New Zealand were getting together to have a few pizzas and beers to mark the season, and got invited to use the aviation sections new tea room. One thing lead to another and they ended up showing us through their workshop hanger, where the public does not get to go, and they also opened up a couple of the aircraft for us. So tonight I have sat in the pilots seat of a DC3, as well as one of the passenger seats, then tried out the pilots seat and the tail gunners seat of a Sunderland. The Sunderland looks big enough from outside, it seems even more roomy once you are inside, with the opportunity to go up and downstairs. There are bunks, a little galley, and plenty of room to swing the proverbial cat. I liked the little winch and the anchor stowed on the wall. (Is it a wall or a deckhead?) The little toilet compartment is much bigger than the one in my boat, there is room to stand up and even turn around in there. There is also a Solent there but we didn't go in that one.
 
As well, we saw some of the aircraft under restoration in the hanger. Let me see, Grumman Avenger, North American Harvard, De Havilland Mosquito. Couple more I can' t remember. There was a very interesting three cylinder radial engine from an American company, can't remember the name. They seem pretty well set up for gear, but there is plenty of work do do there, as always at any museum there is more work than there is time, volunteers,  or money to do it in/with. The museum is currently building a new display hanger which will provide a better place to display some of the aircraft.
 
regards
John
KWIL22/12/2010 12:07:36
3049 forum posts
56 photos
Whenever I go to RAF Cosford, to the Air Museum, I always blow a kiss to the TSR2 they have there. I  wear my tie with a TSR2 woven on it. Last time the on duty staff said "Have you seen the new video?" To which I replied ,"filmed at Boscombe Down the first day she flew, I was there!"
WALLACE22/12/2010 12:46:39
304 forum posts
17 photos
I took my Dad to see the Liberator when it was at Cosford a few years ago - and lo and behold, there was a picture of his squadron with him in it . . 
 
As he said at the time , 'I'd never thought I'd turn into a museum exhibit  !'
 
w.
Ian S C22/12/2010 12:48:38
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7192 forum posts
227 photos
   John, I may have found the 3 cylinder radial you spoke of, there was on made by Jacob Ellehammer in 1903-4, it was the worlds first radial aircraft engine.  The most likely one is the 55hp 3cylinder radial of 1930.
 
    If I was 40k nearer Christchurch, I would be in boots and all at the RNZAF  Museum at Wigram. If there was no opening there , there is an aviation restoration section at Ferrymead on the other side of Chch.
 
    Kwil, its always sad to see a machine like that, that does'nt make it, but thats politics. Quite a number of people here have a similar feeling here about our Skyhawks and Aermacchi trainers sitting around in moth balls awaiting a buyer, but held up by Penagon sales policy. If you want a Skyhawk for a museum, i think they might be available next year. They have been rebuilt, and the avonics are similar or better than the F16,  they are a bomber, not as a lot of people, including politions think, a fighter.
 
NJH22/12/2010 15:13:18
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2313 forum posts
139 photos
Hi Aviators
 
Now here is a different thread and should prove an interesting diversion.On the thread in the "other place" I note you were talking about "G" loading.
In a previous life I had a glider with placarded limits of  +7G  to -4G. I never explored these extremes but is did clank and sing as you soared! 
 
Regards
 
Norman 
Andrew Johnston22/12/2010 16:13:28
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4380 forum posts
511 photos
Good grief, +7g and -4g placarded! Must have been a fully aerobatic glider? Given the clanking I'd guess metal, possibly a Pilatus B4?
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
V8Eng22/12/2010 16:15:16
1210 forum posts
20 photos
How about the Avro Vulcan? What an amazing sight that is. 
 
There is a UK one kept flying and maintained by The Vulcan To The Sky Trust, they rely on private donations to keep her airworthy.
Watch out for this at some air displays next year.
 
There is a website at.
 

Edited By V8Eng on 22/12/2010 16:17:38

RJW22/12/2010 16:29:16
336 forum posts
48 photos
Ah the Vulcan ...............
We moved to Auckley in the 1960's, just down the road from RAF Finningley when the 'Blue Steel' Vulcans were on 4 minute standby 24/7.
It initially took us months to get to sleep with the dulcet tones of them running the engines up all night ............. and the occasional scramble.
 
When they were dispensed with, the silence was shattering, and it took us even longer to get to sleep in the silence that followed.
I'd spend hours after school and at weekends cycling up to the perimeter gates to occasionally watch the beasts being hauled into the skies, and then belt off down the road to Blaxton and sit under the final approach path to watch them floating in to land, what a sight and sound!
Even though I now fully understand how aircraft fly, it still amazes me how such a massive aircraft like that can get off the ground and stay there, and to watch them being reefed around in impossible angles of bank is just awsome.
 
The Domini's that followed just weren't the same.
 
John
 
 
 

 
 

RJW22/12/2010 16:35:17
336 forum posts
48 photos
Thanks for kicking off the 'off topic' on topic aviation thread John
 
Norman, I've brought from the dark side some of the text in a reply that Ian posted ref 'G' loadings (wasn't politic to reply to at the time) ................

Partial Quote:
 I think the only fatigue problem with the Fletcher is with the fin attachment, the problem has shown up as the hp has increased from 225hp to 750hp.  I think it has caused one crash. Structual failure may have caused some crashes, but regular inspection seems to cover most problem areas.
End.
 
Ian, with a 3 fold increase in power, and the tail fin attachment points coincidentally failing, do you think the ag jockeys were actually performing low level 'tail slides' and overcooking it .............. gives a whole new meaning to the term 'taildragger' , maybe they should have put extra wheels on the tail, you could do a VTOL almost with that power to weight ratio <LOL>
That must have been one hell of a ship to pole around when empty though!
What sort of powerplant do they use?
 
Norman, +7 to -4 G's are limits I wouldn't want to explore without a suit ............ or even in one to be honest, I'd say the average (quite fit) ppl would either black or red out at half those figures on a good day.
Most ppl's I've ever flown with almost crapped themselves at the thought of a practice stall and recovery with maybe +1G, and were not at all happy with a couple of g's in a typical 60 deg steep turn.
Many club and private aircraft have so much sh*t swilling around on the floor anyway, the slightest hint of negative G would ensure all on board would be well occupied rubbing crap out their eyes.
It'd be very interesting to see the wing deflection at those limits though ................ 
Was your glider built from composite materials (fibreglass, carbon fibre etc)? I know that stuff can creak quite a bit!
 
Back in my engineering days, I used to rent a workshop attached to a glider repair shop, and got to see some quite scary wreckage that resulted from wings pulling off.
Sometimes the accidents were caused by attachment pins not being secured properly having lost the retaining clips.
Other times, it was fatigue of some sort that caused attachment plates or hinges to shear off - these were mostly wooden structures though, where glue joints had failed.
Have to say, it was quite an eye opener watching some of the airframe repairs, just like building balsa kits ............ but bigger !
Never fancied gliders at all after that!
 
John
 
The Merry Miller22/12/2010 17:01:39
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484 forum posts
97 photos
 Hi folk,
 
Talking about wings falling off, have a look at the clip below.
You'll probably have to copy and paste it.

 
whenitsnotyourtimetodie.wmv
 
Len P.
Geoff Theasby22/12/2010 17:04:49
569 forum posts
14 photos
I have visited Doncaster air museum, Manchester Aviation museum and Newark Air museum.   All fascinating, and I took lots of photos.   Newark has a complete Shackleton, which is one of my favourite aircraft, and a Vulcan, and I used the photos to write an article about air radar, not yet published.
At Newark you can climb inside the Vulcan and the Shackleton, and have them explained.
Cockpits are restricted to real pilots, perhaps to avoid strangers from pulling up the undercarriage, perhaps.   Nevertheless, highly fascinating.   Other aircraft have the cockpits open to all.   I found them very restrictive.
 
Doncaster has the airframe of an Auster.   It doesn't seem capable of holding itself together, let alone forming an aircraft, it is so flimsy.   Other aircraft are parked outside.   The Lightning seems as tall as a block of flats.
 
Regards
Geoff
NJH22/12/2010 17:17:59
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2313 forum posts
139 photos
Andrew
 
Quite right - a Pilatus b4 - all aluminium built like, and SMELLING like, a "real" aircraft!
Nice to fly but it certainly "talked" to you!  The airframe would ping and clunk in response to any "G" inducing manoeuvre. I  recall one pretty thermic day, after about an hour pootling around at about 3,000 ft , there was suddenly a loud bang and the whole aircraft shook.  As you will know one makes a quick and considered assessment of the situation in these circumstances and the problem proved to be the wheel , which I had not  locked up properly, decending rapidly due to the turbulence phew  - relax! As far as exploring the "G"  limits not for me - my partner however became a keen aerobatic pilot.
 
John
Well of course lots of turns in gliders are steep of necessity, especially in the narrow thermals often found in this country, so you get used to it . Very exhilarating though when you get set in a good one with the variometer singing and the altimeter whizzing up!
 
Norman
 
 
John Olsen22/12/2010 18:52:15
928 forum posts
86 photos
1 articles
Ian,
 
You are right about the Ellehammer, except IIRC correctly it was a 75hp and was dated 1931...I did look at the makers plate and then promptly forgot the name. For those into IC engines, it looked like it would make a nice model.
 
I would have thought that cropdusters and top dressing planes would be more prone to brittle fracture due to exceeding the elastic limit than to fatigue. I heard of one spraying plane where the guy decided to save some runs by doing the field at right angles to the  usual. Only drawback was this meant he had to fly between the powerlines and the fence, but there was enough room, right? After a few runs the inevitable happened, and the enquiry established that he had a clearance of about 1 foot more than the total height of the aircraft. Precision flying indeed.
 
regards
John
Stub Mandrel22/12/2010 21:18:15
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4306 forum posts
291 photos
I have some very wonderful aircraft memories...
 
Visiting Saint Athan as a boy and seeing the ME263 and  Vulcan at touching distance.
 
Seeing a Sunderland parked up at Pembroke Dock.
 
The Concorde prototype.
 
Dad getting weepy over the TSR2 (he made two IC powered pusher models of it)
 
The whole earth shaking  as a Phantom put the afterburners on and pulled up directly overhead (I was standing on a wobbly bog at the time)
 
Buzzed by a hawk on the Black Mountain
 
A flight of A10 Warthogs silently appearing from over a wood, barel;y missing the treetops.
 
A flight of Gypsy and Tiger moths going over the garden at about 200 feet on a hot summer weekend.
 
Best of all? Hearing merlins and running outside to see a spitfire and hurricane.
 
Neil
 
RJW22/12/2010 21:25:22
336 forum posts
48 photos
Here you go Neil, just for you, a friend of mine has just happened to send me this:
Airshow
 Enjoy! 
John

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/12/2010 09:22:24

DMB22/12/2010 23:11:49
863 forum posts
I have seen the Vulcan several times - wow!!
Also seen and heard the Eurofighter. When it goes away and turns so you can see the exhausts, the noise just has to be heard to be believed!
They say Concord was noisy. I was at a Stones concert at the old Wembley anmd looked up to see Concord going over, completely `silent` like a dirigible, the concert was so loud. I`ve now got Tinnitus.
John.
 
Andrew Johnston22/12/2010 23:44:40
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4380 forum posts
511 photos
Norman: Feeling smug here that I guessed the right aircraft! I have flown a Pilatus B4, but not the fully aerobatic version. I did an inspection on one and advised the buyer as to whether he should buy it or not. Which he did, and payment was a flight in it once it was back at our local club. I think I had about an hour and half in it; easy enough to fly, but not one for scraping in weak thermals. Interesting that the official BGA tech sheet claims -4.79g as the negative limit? I haven't flown many metal gliders, the others being a Blanik, IS29D, IS28 and one no-one will have heard of, the VFW FK3.
 
I reckon on a decent thermalling turn being about 15-20 seconds per circle. Certainly in the UK, if it's blue, then you'll need to turn more steeply. And in the mountains, especially low down, you need to turn really steeply. If you don't you hit the mountain!
 
John (RJW): In my experience composite gliders don't creak that much, unless they're made by Schempp Hirth, in which case the canopy frame continually squeaks! When I was learning to power fly we regularly had to demonstrate steep turns. Easy really, just line up the flying wires on the cabane struts with the horizon, and you've got about 60° of bank. Also, although spinning wasn't part of the CAA syllabus at the time, the CFI's view was that, since the aeroplane we used would spin, it was necessary to demonstrate three turns of a spin in each direction to his satisfaction.
 
At least in a glider you don't need to worry about the engine stopping! Funny thing, but I'm happy going places in the mountains in a glider that I would never, ever consider in a power 'plane. Oddly, I've also been higher, further and faster in a glider than in a power 'plane.
 
Stub: Ah yes, the Merlin, sounds just like a bag of nails, and always on the point of stopping! Quite unlike the Griffon. I am fortunate to live a few miles from Duxford, and in the summer we regularly get all sorts of WWII aircraft practising overhead. I spend more time in the garden than working!
 
Right, enough rambling for one evening, bedtime calls. I'm working tomorrow, but on the plus side I'm getting paid to play in the workshop.
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
Steve Garnett23/12/2010 00:21:17
837 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by Geoff Theasby on 22/12/2010 17:04:49:
 
Doncaster has the airframe of an Auster.   It doesn't seem capable of holding itself together, let alone forming an aircraft, it is so flimsy.  
 

Oh they do... otherwise I wouldn't be sitting here typing this! Mind you, taking off into not very much of a headwind meant that you didn't actually get very far. Interesting exercise getting them back onto the ground again though (taildragger). But I gave up flying years ago - much too expensive for mere paupers.

ady23/12/2010 00:44:00
612 forum posts
50 photos
The Sunderland looks big enough from outside, it seems even more roomy once you are inside, with the opportunity to go up and downstairs. There are bunks, a little galley, and plenty of room to swing the proverbial cat. I liked the little winch and the anchor stowed on the wall. (Is it a wall or a deckhead?) The little toilet compartment is much bigger than the one in my boat, there is room to stand up and even turn around in there. There is also a Solent there but we didn't go in that one.
As well, we saw some of the aircraft under restoration in the hanger. Let me see, Grumman Avenger, North American Harvard, De Havilland Mosquito.
 
1. Didn't know any sunderlands were left, they're huge.
Is it flyable?
 
2. The last airworthy Mosquitoes were grounded a while back, no skills left and no way of telling if old ones were airworthy or new ones were flyable.
 
The film 633 squadron got some of the last castoffs from the RAF.
They torched 1 or two and I remember thinking  "that would be worth about a million quid now" but the wood construction meant they were a product of their time.
(A time when we weren't a bunch of total dumbasses?)
ady23/12/2010 00:50:09
612 forum posts
50 photos
And don't get too complicated.
 
I remember building an airfix freedom fighter...and righting it off as too easy.
 
But the design is probably the most successful in the history of the jet age.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
 
The Northrop F-5A/B Freedom Fighter and F-5E/F Tiger II are part of a family of widely used light supersonic fighter aircraft, designed and built by Northrop in the United States, beginning in the 1960s. Hundreds remain in service in air forces around the world in the early 21st Century, and the type has also been the basis for a number of other aircraft.

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