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David Clark 117/11/2009 10:28:01
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Hi There
I have received a phone call from a reader saying the Beginners' page in Model Engineer concerning the Stuart 10H and 10V is to advanced for the beginner.
What do other members think? Am I making it too technical?
He thinks I should not be using a mill as beginners don't have one.
 
regards David
 
Geoff Sheppard17/11/2009 11:05:08
80 forum posts
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David
 
If I recall correctly all the milling operations on the 10V described in the original 'M.E.' articles were done in the lathe. These articles were subsequently collated into a book.
 
What about reviving Westbury's book 'Milling in the lathe' which I think was also a resurrection of some articles? The recent availability of relatively cheap and cheerful milling machines has, I feel, diverted our attention from some of the basic home workshop techniques. Time for back to square one on some subjects?
 
Regards, Geoff 
Geoff Sheppard17/11/2009 11:54:52
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Apologies, I forgot that Tom Walshaw (aka Tubal Cain) had superseded Westbury's book with Workshop Practice Series No. 5 on Milling Operations in the Lathe. Some good information within, even if you own a milling machine. He also suggests some ways of dealing with the castings of a slighly larger horizontal engine, the Stuart No. 9.
Well worth getting.
 
Geoff
Circlip17/11/2009 12:15:23
1510 forum posts
And don't forget "Handmaiden" built Bart either.
 
  Regards  Ian.
Baldric17/11/2009 13:26:39
179 forum posts
30 photos
Posted by David Clark 1 on 17/11/2009 10:28:01:
He thinks I should not be using a mill as beginners don't have one.
 
regards David
 

Quite a few begineers do have mills as they are cheap, or have lathe/mill combos. I liked the way that with the base plate you showed machining it in the different machines. I am actually waiting to see if you suggest a way of machining the main support for the vertical engine in the mill as I would guess this would be easier if you have both machines available.

Peter Gain17/11/2009 14:24:19
103 forum posts
Your correspondent complains that beginners do not have mills. Suggest that he uses some initiative & mills in the lathe. Plenty of printed works to give guidance. Might as well complain that some beginners do not have lathes.
David Clark 117/11/2009 15:40:55
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Hi There
Could be done in the mill.
Better if you have a boring head but possible without.
regards David
 
JasonB17/11/2009 16:28:28
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I think that the way you suggested how to avoid the problems of backlash would be equally applicable to using the X & Y handwheels on a mill or with the casting on a vertical slide the cross feed and VS handwheels.
 
Though it may be an idea to show some dummy set-ups using just the lathe to give beginners other options if they don't have a mill.
 
Its always going to be difficult to decide at what level to pitch an article, do you go right back to basics such as marking out, use of a centre punch and then dot punch once you are happy with the position etc
 
Jason
David Clark 117/11/2009 17:48:37
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
Yes, it is relevant to both methods.
A lathe is basically a horizontal milling machine.
You can mill on a lathe and also turn on a mill.
regards David
 
Ian S C18/11/2009 11:10:27
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Yes you can use a vertical mill as a lathe,I needed a new pin for the back gear on my lathe,I mounted the peice of steel in the drill chuck,put a lathe tool in the vise clamped to the table,a few minutes later pin made and 6mm thread on the end and fitted in the bull wheel.I could have used my Super Adept I suppose.IAN S C
Peter Lidgett18/11/2009 12:07:03
5 forum posts
David,
 
I'm a beginner, and have been following your articles on the Stuart 10V engine as I am building this as my first project.  I also have the book "Building a Vertical Steam Engine" book by Andrew Smith covering the build.  This covers the build using a lathe only.  At present I am adopting the approach for each element I feel most comfortable with from either your articles or the book.  In some instances, using only a lathe and in others using a mill.  As a beginner in this hobby I find your articles set just at the right level.
 
Regards Pete 
David Clark 118/11/2009 14:07:09
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3357 forum posts
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Hi Pete
Glad you find the article at the right level.
I try to make it simple with exact details so it comes out right.
I have had a couple of complaints that it is set at too high a level.
 
The articles are not so much about how to machine a Stuart 10 V or H but how to machine anything accurately.
 
Typical complaint - I did not explain how to use wobbler better or what it was.
regards David
 
Chris18/11/2009 19:17:35
87 forum posts
13 photos
There are some really interesting points in this thread David. My entire knowledge of precision engineering until starting Northumbrian dated back to my school days ( some 40+ years ago) and a very enthusiastic metalwork teacher. In that time memory loss has played its part alongside the introduction of many new and affordable tools to aid our hobby.
Many starters who are younger than myself will have had no metalwork at school as the health and safety lot got rid of machine tools from schools about 20 years ago which means that basic really is basic, particularly for someone with your intense engineering background. Recently I picked up from this forum the proper marking out practise of measuring from a base line and not from each successive mark.
Perhaps a few short articles, just page fillers would be useful. Also brief descriptions of tools and their use. I have great difficulty getting centre punch marks exactly where I want them. Bet there's a tool for that ! What the hell is a wobbler. 
Personally I have found your articles very useful so far and have re-made a couple of the parts for my Stuart using your instructions.
Chris.
David Clark 118/11/2009 19:58:19
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Hi Chris
A wobbler is an edge finder, so called because the older versions wobbled. The newer versions just run out.

Taking the hint (I had another email today) I have purchased a proper old fashioned wobbler from Ebay. It is a Starrett, not a cheapo one.

I will do an article on edge finding in the near future.

To pick up a centre with a centre punch is quite easy.
You need a nice sharp scriber or height gauge or similar.
 
Scribe one of the lines then scribe the other one at 90degrees.
Put the centre punch in the first line and slide it along until it clicks into the second line.
Then you should be dead on centre. You need a good sharp centre punch.
 
I was going to do a beginners special next year but it looks like it needs doing sooner in Model Engineer. Problem is, lots of Model Engineers' Workshop readers need the same information but I can't repeat it in both magazines.
 
Perhaps I need to do the articles in one magazine and then release it onto the website a couple of months after it appears in the magazine.
 
regards David
 
 
JasonB18/11/2009 20:00:41
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Chris, you should punch first with a dot punch, this has a more pointed end, then examine the mark and if its not correct you can "pull" it right by tilting the punch and giving it a tap in the right direction, once happy use the centre punch.
 
Also if you need to use a pair of dividers to mark an arc do so while its a dot punch mark as the point will locate better.
 
If all that fails then an optical punch will help, I use the Veritas one.
 
I now prefer to use an electronic edge finder instead of a wobble but they do the same thing, the one Greenwood tools sell fits a 1/2" chuck or collet.
 
Jason
Chris18/11/2009 20:27:46
87 forum posts
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Thanks David and Jason,
Perhaps that is as simple as it needs to be. A couple of little gems of information like that will doubtless save me hours of frustration in the future.
Half a dozen 'Little Gems' in each issue of both publications would be very useful and I'm sure readers would flood you with them.
Chris.
John Coates18/11/2009 21:06:21
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Posted by David Clark 1 on 18/11/2009 19:58:19:
I was going to do a beginners special next year but it looks like it needs doing sooner in Model Engineer. Problem is, lots of Model Engineers' Workshop readers need the same information but I can't repeat it in both magazines.
 
 
 Ahh and there you have my dilemma as a beginner - which magazine do I subscribe to (Xmas pressie, possibly from me to me!)?
 
I am interested in the engineering aspects having just purchased a 5 x 24 roundbed lathe but my intent is to fabricate parts for my motorbikes to do conversions and a restoration, not make models. I've bought a vertical milling slide (for a Myford but it fits my cross slide) and collets and end mills and slot drills. I bought the Workshop Practice 5 book "Milling Operations in the Lathe". Personally I think it is more about the milling attachments that are/were available than how to mill in the lathe 
 
But first I've got to get my garage sorted where the lathe is going to go and then find a way of moving the blummin' thing. Must weigh at least 1/4 ton!!
 
John
David Clark 118/11/2009 21:25:45
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3357 forum posts
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Hi John
I would subscribe to Model Engineer.
Then you can buy Model Engineers' Workshop from Smiths.
regards David
 
John Coates18/11/2009 21:36:25
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Posted by David Clark 1 on 18/11/2009 21:25:45:
I would subscribe to Model Engineer.
Then you can buy Model Engineers' Workshop from Smiths.
 
 
Hi David
 
I have a wife to spend my hard earned wonga without you giving her a hand!
 
Seriously though is Workshop more about tools and practices and the other one more about plans, trains and steam engines? Only guess this looking at the compilation special that is advertised elsewhere
 
John (heading towards pennylessness)
David Clark 118/11/2009 21:47:46
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3357 forum posts
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10 articles
Hi John
Workshop is about tools and techniques.
By tradition Workshop does not include models.
 
Model Engineer can include tools and models.
 
Workshop is a spin off from Model Engineer probaly 20 years ago.
That is when Model Engineer lost its way.
 
I do try to include machining techniques in workshop.
159 will have an article about hand turning pens but the principle can be used for many things.
 
I learnt my engineering from Model Engineer in the school library.
regards David

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