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Warning buyer beware

Mizoguchi boring head

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Manny lambert29/05/2022 10:23:54
31 forum posts
15 photos

Hi, been a long time.

Just bought a tool from online auction site with the following description;

(Mizoguchi universal facing and boring head. Designed for performing the most precise operations, with the highest accuracy. Int 40 taper fitting, no damage or marks and a comprehensive kit of extensions and accessories. A superb piece of Japanese engineering and worth every penny as an investment.)

I received the item the following week and was devastated, the photos provided looked ok but there was no photo of the working face where the boring bars are fitted.

It turns out the boring head as been involved in a crash there a burr raised which has turned blue and purple.

On closer inspection this boring had been dismantled which is evidence by the damaged 3 screws in the top feeding ring. The feeding ring binds up and the lower ring does not turn for fine adjustment.

The boring head is actually Morse taper 3 fitted with an Int 40 adapter, I told the seller to remove the adapter to confirm this and he did.

I decided to try it out , the fine feeding button was pushed in while rotating both rings to engage the fine feed.

I run it at 50 rpm with the button in and could not hold the ring by hand I then used the small bar supplied and it snatches out of your hand. The fine feed does not even move the slide.!!!!!?

The lock used for boring does not lock anything whatsoever !!!!!?

I then decided the boring and facing head does not match the description at all, yes everything in the photos was shiny, but without the function, At the moment its a very expensive paper weight. The dispute is ongoing with the seller.

Yesterday I at last found a British company in Norfolk that deals with Boring and facing heads so I gave them a call;

I have told the following:

1: head crashed (I have detailed photos of damage)

2: possibly broke fine feed lever?

3: possibly broken gear train

4: possibly missing internal parts due to incorrect reassembly

5: match pair of gears not fitted correctly

I have been advised by said company that its only worth 50% of original price or less.

Possible problems parts no longer available, they would need to be made at more expense.

So the boring head is going back where it came from.

The boring head serial number is; Mu-3 H.E no.5599

Just in case it gets relisted.

I hope this helps anyone else contemplating such a purchase.

Manny

Brian Wood29/05/2022 10:37:16
2579 forum posts
39 photos

Sorry to hear all this Manny and thank you for your generosity in sharing the information with us. I hope you get a refund as the sale breaks all the rules of trust in distance selling methods, very sharp practice indeed

Regards

Brian

Tony Pratt 129/05/2022 10:39:24
2026 forum posts
12 photos

Clear case of 'item not as described' seller should refund all the purchase price plus your costs to send it back.

Tony

Michael Gilligan29/05/2022 10:56:41
avatar
20289 forum posts
1064 photos

Presumably the Mizoguchi item which can still be viewed in “completed listings”

Thanks for the warning

MichaelG.

larry phelan 129/05/2022 11:57:50
1192 forum posts
15 photos

Sounds like a real case of "Buying a pig in a poke" !

Believe nothing you are told, or read.

Paper never refuses ink.frown

not done it yet29/05/2022 12:16:20
6888 forum posts
20 photos

At that price, I think I would be checking it out in person before making payment.

Even at half that outlay, I would be taking a chance with my money for anything secondhand!

At least there is a good chance of a refund from the seller. But it may be difficult as they have not been completely honest already.

David-Clark 129/05/2022 14:22:12
avatar
222 forum posts

If you paid by PayPal you can raise a dispute but don’t do that until all options have been looked at.

Manny lambert30/05/2022 20:07:19
31 forum posts
15 photos

Hi ,

I want to thank everyone for their support.

The facing and boring head is being returned tomorrow, the auction site had to intervene as the seller refused to acknowledge and pay for the return costs.

I have a couple of questions;

1 ;Is their a better way to protect these purchases other than the auction site method of payment ?

2 ;How can we protect the model engineering community from such unscrupulous people ?

I want to respond to the suggestion that we should inspect all purchases, I agree but up to a point.

I cannot travel due to my health and getting older, so I all ways check the feedback scores when I will make a purchase , I have now decided that this method is not at all reliable.

I have now decided that any future expensive purchase must be guaranteed in writing from the seller by a message through the auction site, hopefully then it will an indicator of honesty.

If anyone wants me to upload the photos of the offending item please let know.

Opinions welcome please.

my regards to all model engineers

Manny

Tony Pratt 130/05/2022 20:20:34
2026 forum posts
12 photos

To be honest Paypal gives a fair protection for the buyer as you have found, if there is blatant dishonesty they will act. I for one would like to see photos.

Tony

not done it yet31/05/2022 09:07:59
6888 forum posts
20 photos

I want to respond to the suggestion that we should inspect all purchases, I agree but up to a point.

Did someone? I most certainly didn’t. I often buy things unseen from the ‘net. I only wrote that I would not shell out that much without fully checking it out.

Depends on more than one factor. Available funds is my main driver, for checking out expensive second hand items.

Manny lambert31/05/2022 09:10:00
31 forum posts
15 photos

damage head 8.jpgdamage head 5.jpgdamage head 1.jpg

damage head 10.jpgdamage head 3.jpg

Hi,

I have just added photos. I hope the pictures are clear and can be enlarged so you can view the damage.

I strongly suspect that the damage was done very early in the life of this boring head, the head was then taken apart due to a fault and then put back together wrong without the problems being fixed.

I also suspect that the head was left on a shelf and did not see any more use, the condition of the accessories testify to such an event.

The raised burr is approx .015 to .020 thou in the worst place. You can also see that the screws and circlip are damaged due to incorrect use of tools.

A very nice and expensive paper weight.

I hope this helps others before purchasing.

Manny

Frances IoM31/05/2022 09:24:04
1283 forum posts
28 photos
you have only inserted small thubnail images - non-expandable
not done it yet31/05/2022 11:36:47
6888 forum posts
20 photos

And me? I would be quite happy with only 0.020 thou ,at worst (as I could not measure that.🙂

Tony Pratt 131/05/2022 11:45:47
2026 forum posts
12 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 31/05/2022 11:36:47:

And me? I would be quite happy with only 0.020 thou ,at worst (as I could not measure that.🙂

As we all know he means .015" to .020".

Tony

lfoggy31/05/2022 13:02:16
avatar
196 forum posts
18 photos

So sorry to hear about your problem which I hope will be resolved soon.

I registered with ebay when it first started some 25 years ago and have made well over 1200 purchases since then, many of which have been second hand or new workshop related items. I have had some amazing bargains and very few problems. My rules are: 1. Only ever buy items to a value you are prepared to lose and 2. Only buy used items up to around 50% of the equivalent new cost from a reputable dealer and 3. Only buy items that are well described and photographed. I am wary of poor spelling and grammar as well.

The key is to rationally offset the price against the risk and hassle.

Has worked well for me.

peak431/05/2022 13:49:24
avatar
1786 forum posts
193 photos

Manny, glad you're resolved, but unfortunately without the desired product.

You seem to be aware of how to resolve an issue on ebay, but for the benefit of others.

Make sure all communication is via ebay messenger; if you phone the vendor, back it up via messenger.
Try and make sure you appear as reasonable as possible, giving the vendor several chances to rectify the issue, whilst being mindful of the time limits.
Only then take it up formally via the eBay Dispute process.

If the vendor appears genuine, but a business closing down; make sure you're sorted before the business ceases trading.

Bill

SillyOldDuffer31/05/2022 14:59:34
Moderator
8898 forum posts
1998 photos

I'm afraid the answer to both Manny's questions is a large, sour, yellow lemon!

1 Is their a better way to protect these purchases other than the auction site method of payment ?

2 How can we protect the model engineering community from such unscrupulous people ?

The purchase of almost anything can go bottom up leaving unhappy buyers in the poo. We have some protection from Consumer Law, Banks, Public Opinion, and market organisers like Ebay and Amazon. Public opinion is perhaps the most powerful: reputable firms hate bad publicity, and even the Mafia dislike it. Unfortunately fly by night and companies going over the edge don't care much. Worse none of the protections extend to delivery of the item we paid for in good order. Recompense is more likely to consist of money back, maybe with a little extra from the supplier on a good will basis.

No one is going to send the boys round with baseball bats to sort out a failed second-hand purchase. The police and regulators are disinclined to act even in outright criminality unless a seller causes many complaints, lots of money is involved, and they think they can prove it without going to disproportionate trouble.

Fortunately, most purchases work out well enough most of the time, and when things inevitably go wrong we usually get a replacement or a refund. Admittedly the hassle is annoying, and not getting what was wanted in acceptable condition is a disappointment, but it could be worse. We might have our bank account emptied by a conman, pay full price for counterfeit goods, or have the house sold whilst we're away.

House sold without the owners permission? If anyone fancies writing to their MP, they might ask why the Office of the Public Guardian, who issues the documentation granting Lasting Power of Attorney has been handing them out for years without doing any identity checks? LPA is an important legal document that gives full control over someone's affairs to a third-party. They cover family situations where an individual can't manage their own affairs, usually dementia. The loophole has been exploited by criminals, and the system is now being changed urgently. But the evidence is that the Public Guardian and his political master have been negligent for many years. Why?

Just an example of how we live in an imperfect world. Criminals take advantage whenever they can, most people are tempted by a quick profit, and even legitimate transactions go wrong!

Dave

Clive Brown 131/05/2022 16:21:49
866 forum posts
47 photos

Glad to hear the OP seems to have resolved the issue, albeit without the item he wanted. Looking at what I believe is the listing, the seller shows a fairly sizeable feedback score and at 100% which makes this problem rather surprising.

I joined Ebay some 20 years ago and my experience has been very good, the couple of problems that have arisen in that time having been quickly and amicably resolved at no cost to myself. The vast majority of sellers seem very keen to avoid negative feedback but the one in this case seems to have fallen from grace.

Stuart Smith 531/05/2022 16:37:23
282 forum posts
43 photos

If it is the one shown in sold items, the seller has a large 100% feedback , but the vast majority are for purchases he has made.

I can only see 5 for items he has sold .

For a purchase of this value, I think I would be looking for a lot higher numbers of sold items.

Stuart

Manny lambert31/05/2022 17:15:19
31 forum posts
15 photos

Hi,

thank you to every body for their input and experience. All I am waiting for is the full refund now.

I must also say its only the second time in 8 years of buying tools that this has happened, but I must admit I feel like a complete idiot at my age I should know better. I still like to trust people.

I also gave the seller the full opportunity to give me a partial refund a rather large one due to the unknown nature of the damage, but he totally refused to even discuss the matter.

My expert told me at least 50% was fair as the accessories have some value.

regards

Manny

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