|Nigel Graham 2||28/12/2021 13:11:25|
|2133 forum posts|
Sorry, but while others may, I don't make that link about "prior exposure to 2D" draughting.
My point is that with any CAD package, you need learn how to to fit drawing's objects together properly, whether in 2D or 3D. Nothing to do with the projection, but as with any other complicated software, you need know how to "ask" it to perform the task.
Despite been taught manual Technical Drawing at school (my only A-Level from there!), using loose T-square and set-squares, and using conventional engineering-drawings at various times at work and home since; I do not see CAD as a direct digital version of those skills, in both orthographic and isometric projection.
Instead I see CAD as its own way to perform a given task. Its parallel with manual draughting is the result (the drawing) not the way to it. So I knew from the start to see CAD in its own right; as a digital plotting system, not electronic species of ebony and ebonite.
Similarly, my mainly-orthographic background does not colour my view of isometric CAD "models", though orthographic projections are more useful to me. Isometric projection has always been important in technical drawing - but is slow and difficult manually, needing considerable geometrical constructions. 3D CAD does all that constructing, but its use replaces one lot of difficulties with another.
Nothing to do with familiarity with orthographic drawings.
I reject the assumption that the only way to make any workshop drawing is via a 3D CAD model. I found it a very difficult long way round from envisaging an item to the drawing that guides making it. The 3D model did not help me even just draw the part; certainly not to design it. For a 3D drawing to help me design it, a rough sketch on paper is far easier and quicker.
Some 3D-first advocates argue it by our living in a 3D world, designing 3D objects. Fair enough, but often we can, and may need, see only one elevation at a time; and usually need full orthographic views to be able to make the item.
So how might 3D CAD drawings be useful to me? Errr... I am not sure, but I may as well have the opportunity. Yet the drawing is only a means to an end; and " because we can " or de rigeur, are no reasons at all. So I thought of when I first considered using CAD.
At work I frequently saw orthographic drawings with small, explanatory pictorial renderings helping the machinist visualise the part; and sometimes, 3D assembly-drawings. Hemingway uses the same approach on their kit drawings. I could see the advantages CAD offers over manual draughting, and decided to look further; encouraged by two other contemporary matters.
1) Serious problems with my steam-lorry project, by having to design and draw it from only a few old photographs, so at times I nearly abandoned it. If CAD could help me make decent drawings more readily, it might help me design the vehicle - I had no idea of CAD's difficulty, only its purposes.
2) CAD was appearing in model-engineering. Paul Tracy started advertising TurboCAD in our magazines: the only industrial-quality CAD package available, and at sensible prices, to we amateurs.
So I went for it!
TurboCAD allows both immediate orthographic elevations and 3D modelling, fortunately because I have learnt the former, with a struggle, to an adequate level; but the latter is far harder. I feared the later Fusion and Alibre rivals' 3D-first approach as a huge, additional IT barrier between rough pencil sketch and functional workshop drawing.
Yet 3D is potentially useful to me, for certain, limited purposes; e.g. preliminary sketches and layout drawings. I cannot expect reaching the level Nicholas shows with his car engine.
So I would like to be able to make three-dimensional, low-detail sketches of single parts or simple assemblies like that hand-pump; and even to represent an entire machine by sub-assembly outlines - e.g. my steam-wagon but to better than I showed.
If Solid Edge (C) is easier to learn than TC it may advance my CAD skill enough for me to do those, to a useful level.
It all has nothing to do with my orthographic background, but very much with how easily I can learn the sotfware!
|David Jupp||28/12/2021 13:48:09|
|835 forum posts|
3D sketches are only used for very specific things in 3D CAD (and are not even available in all products). For now don't even think about 3D sketches.
2D sketches are the basis of all 3D parts.
8692 forum posts
Nigel, many of us have noticed you seem to have a strong 2D mindset. It flashes like a beacon throughout your posts. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, perhaps it is a duck?
If we're correct, it's the reason you can't easily learn the software. A 2D mindset is a fundamental road block to taking 3D-CAD on board. Nothing to do with intelligence - it's roughly equivalent to a classics scholar trying to learn an oriental language from his trusty Latin Grammar.
I think you'd get on much better with a basic 2D CAD package - not TurboCAD, AutoCAD, or any of the other big boys because they're packed full of confusing advanced features. QCAD / LibreCAD does more than I need, others available!
|Nigel Graham 2||28/12/2021 16:08:10|
|2133 forum posts|
Dave (S.O.D.) -
I appreciate that assembling a 3D drawing needs to be very accurate, but I know the programme does that provide you can use it correctly. My sticking-point is knowing how to ask it do that, in any CAD package.
I have no "strong desire" to use "outdated" software. Only to use appropriate software; though I don't approve of the IT industry's commercial obsolescence methods. After all, we don't buy a new lathe every couple of years, but only to replace an old one worn beyond economical repair, or with one that genuinely will better suit our needs.
I am preparing to up-date my PC from WIN-7 to WIN-10, and for safety have aready copied everything to two independant solid-state drives.
PC security apart, this will give me three CAD options: continuing with TurboCAD 19 Pro, buying its new version, or at least trying SolidEdge Community. The latter TC almost certainly and SEC definitely, are written for WIN-10 anyway.
My reason for using CAD has not changed, what I want from it has not changed; my design and building abilities have not changed. I woul dthough my CAD abilities to improve, and that includes trying to learn 3D CAD enough to be fairly useful. I know I could not reach its advanced levels and I doubt I need its more rarified aspects anyway.
I am afraid that though I appreciate CAD helps you to design machinery, I cannot see how it reduces your skills as a designer. It does the formidable plotting maths and geometry for you, yes; but you still need understand what you are designing, its materials and how to make it. Also to avoid the CAD trap I have seen in professional drawings, of mathematically correct details very difficult and inefficient, even impossible, to make.
Rather, I think the skill level about equal. CAD has exchanged your geometrician's skills with your IT skills.
By "sketch" I meant simply any rough preliminary drawing or layout, lacking fine details, line formats, etc.; as a basis for the proper workshop drawings.
Not as the generating-lines for 3D extrusions. I forgot Fusion's terminology!
The "sketch" of my part-built steam-wagon is just that - a "sketch", despite a 3D image to the real dimensions, comprising many extrusions and primitives.
E.g. I Assembled one channel-section chassis rail from three Extrusions of a figure made by Adding three "box" (cuboid) primitives. The other is its Mirror-copy about the chassis centre-line.
It shows the vehicle's layout, and if I knew how to take off and dimension its elevations, it would help further work; but is still only a sketch, and a very crude one at that.
|Nicholas Wheeler 1||28/12/2021 16:37:50|
|930 forum posts|
Your steam-wagon is the 3D CAD model of a 'back of the envelope' sketch.
That isn't an insult, as they are are just as useful as ones done in pencil on an actual envelope. It allows you to develop what are important features, where the datums are, not to use the primitive solids(seriously, don't use them) and dimensions that you can establish as parameters before you start on a more sophisticated model. One like this, which might look finished but only a few of the measurements are final, the rest are based on incomplete tape measure work or educated guesses:
Your work shows that you are on the right track, but just need some encouragement from a more experienced person. The pump would be a good place to start.
|David Jupp||28/12/2021 16:41:55|
|835 forum posts|
In most 3D CAD the terminology has very specific meanings.
2D sketch - a simple profile that is used to define the outline (shape/size) of a 3D Feature. The Feature when combined with other Features will produce a Part. A sketch is not unlike a traditional 2D drawing but contains much less information - it needs just enough to define a part outline, or perhaps a hole. It definitely doesn't define the entire part. Keeping sketches simple makes later editing much easier.
3D sketch - typically a path in 3D space, might be used for example to Sweep a 2D Sketch along to produce (for example) a piece of formed pipe. 3D sketches are not used very often - they tend to be tricky to produce. The same result can often be achieved with 2D sketches (perhaps on newly added reference planes). I would suggest avoiding them in the early days.
Your use of terminology contrary to how it is usually used in 3D CAD is probably not helping you to follow what other are saying, and vice versa.
I don't know enough about TurboCAD to make any fair comment about it, so I won't criticise it.
In most 3D CAD systems you can very easily both set and change the sizes of features after doing the initial sketches. Ease of making changes as a design evolves is a major strength of 3D CAD.
Measurement tools are provided in the 3D workspace.
Workshop drawings can be prepared from any part or assembly, by switching to the 2D drawing module - choose paper size, scale, required views, place dimensions (which are automatically populated). Better still, if you edit the part/assembly (change size, or add a hole) the workshop drawing updates to reflect the changes - no need to re-draw anything. If you later want to change the sheet size or re-scale a view, it takes a few seconds.
I would do a screen share session for you to run through this - but it would be Alibre based, which you've already decided against. It would be best not to confuse you further even if the basics are similar to most 3D CAD systems.
|Nigel Graham 2||28/12/2021 18:50:33|
|2133 forum posts|
Thank you for the encouragement and tips.
The terms I use are as both conventional draughting in any medium, and in IMSI's TurboCAD.
What is the problem with the Primitives?
The pump drawing is mainly of extrusions, but their generating forms (the "sketches" then, in other CAD versions) were from the tool-bar library of plane figures including the hexagons for the nuts. I think I made the cut-away portion by extruding a 'C' by circles and lines, but might equally have used 3 primitives by 'Subtracting' a cylinder and a cuboid from a larger cylinder. The foot is certainly an extrusion. The ram, pins and links were probably a mixture of library 2D and 3D figures. I would have inserted the ram by making its and the cylinder's axes equal by co-ordinates, then applying the appropriate single-axis move.
I have not seen the word Sketch used in TurboCAD, so opened TC then its "Help" site to find out. Sadly though, IMSI's pdf document opens at Page 1, but no longer works. It froze and I had to use Task Manager to close it - a WIN-7 / Firefox/ Adobe conflict? Eventually, I found Sketch among the tool-bar commands, and added it to the appropriate tool-bar to experiment...
.... In IMSIan, "Sketch" is literal. It allows you to scribble free-hand with the mouse!
Using TurboCAD's 2D/3D switch wrongly can cause very baffling havoc with the workplane; apparently one of the most common TC beginner's mistakes. I think to take off an elevation from a model you set the workplane temporarily on the view's "nearest" facet.
That cross-linking of dimensions does not seem to happen in TC, at least not in the 19 Pro edition. Nor can you dimension a 3D view, only an elevation or plane figure. I don't know if changing a dimension is automatically reflected in its copy elsewhere. It might if an "associative" dimension, whose value tracks altering the entity.
I have just tried another, existing 3D drawing - two cross-heads, one sectioned lengthways with its cut-off part slid backwards to show the cavity and pin, plus the piston-rods and pistons - to see if I can make sense of the above.
Instead I selected by a simple slip, "Edit Mode": a peculiarity of unknown purpose, irreversible without closing and re-opening the whole programme! The Sketch tool would not go to sleep either. These stopped me doing what I was attempting. I tried to copy the simply-rendered image to Paper Space, and yes, that too reverted to wire-frame form.
Among other things, I found I was incorrect previously: IMSI calls its projections, Isometric and not orthographic but Dimetric! Where the heck did they find that word? Shorter caption, I suppose. I've managed to delete Sketch from the tool-bar though.
Maybe it's time I did move to a less frustrating CAD programme!
Alibre - I decided against it when MEW was promoting it. I tried Part 1, maybe Part 2, happily enough, in copies bought in the shop. I started a subscription but it somehow skipped 1 or 2 issues. The unexpected break made me realise I was trying to learn - and would eventually need apparently subscribe too - a totally different replacement for a fully paid-for system in which I was beginning to make some headway.
|Gary Wooding||29/12/2021 13:02:03|
|983 forum posts|
Nigel: Just to whet your appetite, try creating a line drawing in TCAD containing...
Two lines from a point - 1 vertical and the other horizontal - like the +X and +Y axes of a graph.
At the point of intersection, ie locn 0,0, draw a square of side 12 units.
Now draw a line, 35 units long, that just touches the two lines and just touches the corner of the square.
And yes, I know it's a very old puzzle that's a pig to calculate, hard to draw in TCAD, but trivial in Fusion or any other modern 3D cad system.
|Nigel Graham 2||29/12/2021 17:16:25|
|2133 forum posts|
Ah, the old ladder puzzle: the ladder has to reach as high up the wall as possible despite the obstacle - never mind the 1-in-4 safety rule!
That is how I have seen it in a maths text-book. I soon realised calculating it would be impossible for me, with having to derive either extremely advanced trigonometry, simultaneous equations in x and y with both values squared and possibly calculus. Or all three. It roused a vague memory of a slightly similar locus problem in A-Level Technical Drawing; and whose principle was used in a shaping-machine attachment for generating large concave curves by raising the work end as the table is traversed past the ram.
It proved easy to solve to 4 places of decimals in TC - a very simple drawing but a rather tedious set of iterations. It certainly shows the fractional definition that CAD gives!
Appropriate Snaps set, some preliminary experiments with a 35mm dia circle at (6, 6) and two extended diagonals narrowed the search area to a provisional foot at about (8, 0).
A cross-hair at that point, join its intercept to the (6, 6) vertex, produce that line to cut the y-axis then measure its length (diagonal dimension.)
Delete the line, nudge the cross-hair a bit, repeat the slope and measurement...
Eventually down to 0.002mm cross-hair steps.
I stopped at slope length 34.9997 units (actually mm).
This gives intercepts at (7.2750, 0) and (0, 34.2353)
..... Close enough?
(I suppose you'll now you go and tell me there is a construction that solves it in one go!)
I have decided as far as IT goes I may be best buying a new system, lower-range as I don't use my PC for games/entertainments, but still WIN-11 straight off or WIN-10 with up-rate capability. The retailers are still selling both. Really I need find an independent dealer - they and I are more likely to understand each other than some bright young thing in the anything-leccy emporium under the sign of highly-spiced foods or horse-rakes.
I found yesterday that TC's on-line Help won't appear. Perhaps IMSI has made it W10-only. I tried to find out via its Forum but my password won't pass either, and my attempt to obtain a new one failed.
TurboCAD allows saving drawings in a wide variety of file-types. These include DWF, DWG, DXF. Am I right thinking those are more or less industry-standards so SolidEdge (or Alibre or...) should read them?
|Gary Wooding||29/12/2021 17:32:37|
|983 forum posts|
The point I was making with the puzzle is that modern CAD systems can do it exactly with just 3 constraints - no calculations at all. You just draw the the 2 axes and the square, then a 35 unit long line and say the ends of the line must touch the axes and the line itself must touch the corner of the square - job done.
My rather ancient m/c is too old for Win11, but I personally don't see it has any advantages over Win10.
I reckon SE(C) would be perfect for you and yes, the file-types you mentioned are industry standard.
|Nicholas Wheeler 1||29/12/2021 17:51:03|
|930 forum posts|
Your point should be that functionality is how the program is actually used to create objects: the computer tracks where things are, not you. All the user does is place a point where he wants it at the centre of a curve/tangent to another/where three edges meet/273.78454527mm above a face and at 34.68347° to it. That makes coordinates, dimensioned moves and all the other stuff carried over from paper utterly redundant.
Working this way makes the model stronger, as when you change a part all those carefully calculated and specified coordinates are no longer correct and weird stuff happens. Whereas when you told the computer to place a feature in the centre of another, the new feature always moves with it. That would be a good reason if it was the only one, but doing things this way frees up a lot of thought and work that can be applied to the design.
|Nigel Graham 2||29/12/2021 18:02:37|
|2133 forum posts|
I guessed SolidEdge and the rest would solve that puzzle themselves! I didn't need to calculate anything to speak of, just to estimate the little nudges of the "ladder foot" along the axis.
(I'd typed 'reference point' there, then realised that has a specific meaning and purpose in TurboCAD.)
I read the Microsoft web-site carefully, and could not really determine any useful differences between 10 and 11. A good deal of the "up-grade" is probably for games & entertainments. It looks as if 11 also has more powerful camera facilities for video-conferencing etc., with a programme called "Teams". Apparently it even includes facial recognition so your computer knows you. Where's George Orwell when you need him?
It might also be allied to more powerful TPM security, but understanding even what that actually does is above my pension-grade! I'll leave that to the professional hackers studying how to turn it to their advantage.
Those file-types - thank you. I thought I'd seen them in literature referring to, among other things, CNC work and ordering laser-cut parts.
22750 forum posts
Think again about a low range new machine, those bits of hardware that make gaming machines work are also ideal for 3D CAD such as a decent amount of memory and good graphics card.
Look at the minimum requirements for whatever package you may update to and buy a machine that is spec'ed a bit higher than that. This is what Alibre needs, others will be similar but all are not really low range
Edited By JasonB on 29/12/2021 18:57:06
|49 forum posts|
Ignoring Windows 10S, which I know nothing about, there are three versions of Windows 10; Home Edition, Professional Edition and Enterprise Edition. I successfully used Solid Edge C. E. 2021 on an eight year old Windows 10 Home Edition (64 bit) laptop with 8 GB RAM,
When I tried installing Solid Edge C, E, 2022, I found that this would only install on Windows 10 Professional Edition or Enterprise Edition, After I updated my laptop to Win 10 Professional Edition, Solid Edge C, E, 2022 successfully installed. The only issue I have is that the laptops graphics card cannot give full resolution on my plug and play 4K monitor. My next laptop will be a higher specification machine.
It may be worth viewing the Siemens website below to see their system requirements.
This implies that a maintenance pack may be required to run Solid Edge C. E.2022 on Windows 11
Edited By GordonH on 29/12/2021 20:20:20 to add text and correct spelling errors.
Edited By GordonH on 29/12/2021 20:21:58 grammar correction
Edited By GordonH on 29/12/2021 20:23:07 another grammar correction.
Edited By GordonH on 29/12/2021 20:24:16
|Nigel Graham 2||30/12/2021 00:39:13|
|2133 forum posts|
Jason - A good point. I really don't know what graphics processing my present computer (a Dell 'Vostro' PC) has because I could find nothing on the system to tell me.
Gordon - I did wonder about that Windows Home / Professional. Usually 'Home' means a basic version; MS tells us 'Pro' here means additional tools primarily for business users.
My PC can be up-dated to WIN 10, from examining the facts and figures. That's not a problem, and I see it asks what you wish to keep (personal files and "apps" , just data or nowt ).
So what of CAD?
Firstly, Siemens tells us their products won't operate on W10 Home; so that's just over £200 for W10 Pro. There are non-MS sites saying you can load it for free but that seems a rigmarole and a gamble, including no support. Other suppliers seem to advertise MS product keys. Oh aye?
Examining SolidEdge's requirements, even its "Academic" users' version needs a massive 8GB RAM - twice my present PC's and over 4 times WIN-10's needs. It occupies nearly that on the hard disc, but there is plenty of room available there (370Gb free). It would also need a higher-resolution monitor.
TurboCAD 2021 Deluxe (the new edition of what I have, probably, with more stuff) for a 64-bit system needs much the same power and space, but its web-site does not tell me the screen and graphics requirements. probably safe to assume similar.
I cannot find the graphics driver specifications for my computer though, anyway. They are not given anywhere.
So to move to SE(C) or anything similar I'd need a new, WIN-10 computer and monitor! TC 2021 might work but would push my existing computer's limits and probably exceed those of its monitor.
It seems I should up-date the whole caboodle anyway irrespective of whatever CAD software I install; though that will be the heftiest programme I am likely to run.
That so, I reckon I'd best find an independant dealer - knowing his range may be a bit less than in the big chains but the service likely to more helpful - and see what would be best for me. It would also mean the thing would come with W10 all loaded. I'd have to install my existing, older MS and 3rd-party software including 'Office', and hope they work; but so far I have not found anything saying they won't.
MS 'Office' is already on my off-line, spare, PC anyway.
As for price, SE(C) is apparently free - SE is otherwise by costly subscription. The site is a bit ambiguous on that. Either it is free or it is not, but if it's sold I prefer an honest £x00 one-off.
TC 2021 Deluxe normally costs nearly £200 - quite reasonable really - as indeed does WIN-10; but can be purchased for under half that to up-grade an existing installation. That could be an option if I stay with a package that to be fair, I do have some experience in. My original TC 19 Deluxe is on a CD, so installing both in a new PC should be straightforward.
Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 30/12/2021 00:42:43
|David Jupp||30/12/2021 07:43:28|
|835 forum posts|
Nigel, for Win10 Professional - last time I looked you could purchase genuine licences on-line (licence code only) for less than GBP 20. There seems to be a few people in typical on-line marketplaces who specialise in these code only licences, but you do have to dig around to find them (price and availability vary widely).
Now that Win11 is available, a quick looks suggest Win10 licences are still available, but less common than they used to be.
|Gary Wooding||30/12/2021 10:12:01|
|983 forum posts|
My Win10 Home system is a very modest 7yr old 3.20Ghz Core i5-4460, 12GB RAM, 450GB SSD, and 1TB HDD, with GeForce GT 705 video card. It runs Fusion very well, and I've just downloaded, installed and run SE(C) 2022 with no problems.
It originally came with Win7 installed, which I upgraded to Win10 Home when it became available. I've had no problems with the upgrade and all my installed programs continued to run without problems. I see no advantages in upgrading to Win11, even if I could - it's doesn't meet minimum requirements.
|Dave Smith 14||30/12/2021 10:39:25|
|213 forum posts|
To echo Jason's comments, if you go for a low end machine you could be running into trouble as you get more proficient and model sizes increase. CAD systems are very memory hungry and need high end graphics cards and lots of RAM to run properly. My laptop is now 4 years old and has a quad core i7 processor and 8 Gb of ram. The graphics card is an INVIDIA GTX1050 Ti. I find this only just copes with the full 3D model of my Aspinall Class 27. I am considering changing my laptop as I have a damaged case, one screen hinge has broken and the battery is knackered and I will go for 16Gb ram this time and upgrade the graphics. I expect to pay at least £1K for a new machine to give me the power I need. I could probably get it cheaper using a tower system, but the laptop suits how I use the machine. I use a firm called Novatech for all my machines, they are a local independent manufacturer to me based in Porchester Hampshire.
In summary go for the most powerful system you can afford/are prepared to pay for.
|John Hinkley||30/12/2021 10:50:12|
1332 forum posts
I wouldn't bank on any new PC having a CD reader. At least not built-in. My new(ish) HP all-in-one hasn't got one. It has, though, an SSD, high-capacity HD, enough memory and a decent graphics card as standard, coupled to a 24" screen. I purchased this new PC specifically for use with the Alibre 3D package. The rest of the programs that I use for photo manipulation, video editing, word processing etc, will work perfectly well on any old pedestrian machine. Just make sure that you can load them from a source other than CD if the new PC hasn't got one.
(I'm staying out of the "which is best" and "how to do it" tennis match!)
|1993 forum posts|
Just to restate that I am happily running Solid Edge CE 2022 on a six year old laptop.
It has an Intel i5 CPU running at 2.2Ghz with 8Gb RAM. I am also running Windows 10 Home 21H1
It is normal for commercial software organisations to state the level of hardware & software that they support - which is often different to that which their software will actually run on. Having once worked for such a support organistion I know that if a customer phoned with a problem (and was not running the 'supported' level of hardware and software) they would have immediaty been told to 'update' as their first remedial step. This may not suit us 'hobby' users but it makes a good deal of sense where companies have binding 'level of service' contracts in place.
In the case of Siemens, their CAD systems can also be closely bound to Microsoft and other third party applications, which (for the reasons stated above) will be another reason why they will be telling their paying customers to stay current. I'm not trying to link my CAD to other MS apps (or enterpise solutions such as SAP) but many Siemens customers will be doing so as part of their intergrated manufacturing.
In summary, I have free access (for at least the next three years) to a premium CAD product that commercial customers pay about £2K pa for - and I'm very grateful to be able to do so. I'm also quite OK with upgradng my PC technology occassionaly to stay current. Win 10 is supported until late 2025 and my laptop will be about 10 years old by then (if it lasts that long) - not a bad investment for something I use daily.
BTW - Is anyone here still using WhatsApp on an old iPhone or Android? No, you've probably upgraded your mobile phone contract with a newer phone version. But in my case (just on Pay as You Go) I had to buy a new phone to retain WA (essential to my family communications). It seems OK when you have to update your mobile for the latest s/w, so why do folk think that PC's should be any different?
If someone wants to continue run on old PC hardware (& software) then it will very likely restrict their choice of available applications too. You pays your money (or not) and makes your choice.
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