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Routing

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John MC07/10/2021 18:25:56
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This is a woodworking question, hopefully the tea room is the best place for it!

What are the routing cutters called that round an edge and then create a mirror of that edge so the two parts fit together.

The photo shows, I hope, what I want to do, get the routed (molded?) edge to run around an internal corner.

Johnimg_20211007_181157.jpg

Derek Lane07/10/2021 18:31:39
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The parts are routed before assembly and then mitred to 45 deg otherwise you would end up with rounded internal corners.

For the profile of the router cutter look at trends website they have a vast range of shapes

Edited By Derek Lane on 07/10/2021 18:32:57

duncan webster07/10/2021 18:37:39
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But rounded internal corners are a lot easier to keep clean even if they don't look quite as nice

Adrian 207/10/2021 19:03:38
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John, I think you are looking for scribing cutters. The rails of a door might be scribed over the matching moulds on the stiles ( side uprights) which fit under the rail uninterrupted.

Hope this helps.

Adrian.

DC31k07/10/2021 19:07:26
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Posted by Derek Lane on 07/10/2021 18:31:39:

The parts are routed before assembly and then mitred to 45 deg. otherwise you would end up with rounded internal corners.

No mitre is needed with the cutters he is after.

The generic search term is 'stile and rail cutter'. As suggested, Trend's or CMT's catalogues will give you a good overview of what is available.

Derek Lane07/10/2021 19:24:11
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Posted by DC31k on 07/10/2021 19:07:26:
Posted by Derek Lane on 07/10/2021 18:31:39:

The parts are routed before assembly and then mitred to 45 deg. otherwise you would end up with rounded internal corners.

No mitre is needed with the cutters he is after.

The generic search term is 'stile and rail cutter'. As suggested, Trend's or CMT's catalogues will give you a good overview of what is available.

I was thinking of adding a moulding to an existing door but yes agree that a stile and rail cutter is the way to go if making the door from scratch

Edited By Derek Lane on 07/10/2021 19:24:45

JasonB07/10/2021 19:44:17
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Cope and scribe sets do what you want where the cope produces the visible moulding usually on teh styles of say a door and the scrobe cuts the reverse into the ends of the rails so they go together with no need to mitre.

I mostly use spindle tooling for this but do have a couple of sets from Weldon

Bo'sun08/10/2021 10:39:13
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A "scribed moulding" is what you have there and as has been suggested you need a suitable cutter set. Several profiles are available, and depending on what you're doing after, a "raised panel cutter" may also be required for the centre panel.

Having said that, "panel raising" with a router needs careful consideration, and almost certainly a 1/2" router and a router table.

Andy Stopford08/10/2021 13:37:27
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You can also do it old-school by scribing with a coping saw and cleaning up (if necessary, and it generally is) with a gouge or, much better, with the little sanding drums in a Dremel-type tool. This is the way I do skirting boards and the like now, and its very quick and easy.

Do not even think of using the very expensive scribing jig (~£300) sold by Trend. It is total rubbish - I once bought one for a job which involved a lot of scribing, and after spending ages setting it up, cutting my finger in the process, I completed one scribe before the cutter broke. Not too surprising - the cutters are 4mm diameter, project 30 or 40mm, and are hard to feed smoothly because of stiction from the MDF sliding surfaces of the jig. And they cost £30 plus.

And you can't even use it if the joint angle isn't 90 degrees.

That's my rant-of-the-day successfully completed.

JasonB08/10/2021 15:56:41
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It's not really a similar type of scribe as depending on whether its a cabinet or hose door you could be looking at a scribe that is 3 - 8" long and as it also acts a bit like a mortice and tennon needs to be close fitting to give the joint strength and ensure the two surfaces are as close to flush as possible. Then there is also the need to form an accurate slot for the panel and equally matching stub tennon to fill it so you don't see any gaps when looking at the top of the door.

As for skirting I tend to use the SCMS to do a mitre cut and then follow the line where the mitre cut meets the flat front face with a hand saw for the straight part and a coping saw for the scribed moulded part. Add a little back cut as you do it for a nice tight internal corner

Peter Spink08/10/2021 19:01:18
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Posted by JasonB on 08/10/2021 15:56

As for skirting I tend to use the SCMS to do a mitre cut and then follow the line where the mitre cut meets the flat front face with a hand saw for the straight part and a coping saw for the scribed moulded part. Add a little back cut as you do it for a nice tight internal corner

Done lots of scribed internal corners on skirting - wish I'd thought of that! 👍

Andy Stopford08/10/2021 20:23:56
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Posted by JasonB on 08/10/2021 15:56:41:

It's not really a similar type of scribe as depending on whether its a cabinet or hose door you could be looking at a scribe that is 3 - 8" long and as it also acts a bit like a mortice and tennon needs to be close fitting to give the joint strength and ensure the two surfaces are as close to flush as possible. Then there is also the need to form an accurate slot for the panel and equally matching stub tennon to fill it so you don't see any gaps when looking at the top of the door.

As for skirting I tend to use the SCMS to do a mitre cut and then follow the line where the mitre cut meets the flat front face with a hand saw for the straight part and a coping saw for the scribed moulded part. Add a little back cut as you do it for a nice tight internal corner

Well, you're actually still just scribing the moulded part, the mortice and tenon are the same as usual, but come to think of it (its a long time since I've made doors and things) you can't use a coping saw, just chisel and gouge because you're going into the moulding on the mortice side parallel to the tenon. Provided the tenon lines up with the panel then an extension on the tenon outer edge takes care of the panel slot.

As for skirting, yes that's the way I do it, the Dremel (actually one of the Parkside sub-£20 cordless ones) is just to tidy the coping sawn bit - only really necessary if the moulding's fancy, or to match an existing bit. Or if you've messed up.

By the way does anyone know how to do the same, using the mitre saw, but with a 135 degree cut, e.g. in a bay window. I've tried a couple of times, but the geometry doesn't work out.

JasonB08/10/2021 20:31:34
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Set mitre saw to 22.5 deg and do your hand sawing and coping at 45degrees* to the skirting face. Basically you are halving the mitre saw cut eg 22.5 rather than 45 and halving the other saw cuts eg 45 rather than 90. as the complementry angle of your 135 is 45deg which is half of 90.

* back cut actually make sit slightly more

Andy Stopford08/10/2021 20:49:03
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Yes, I'm sure I remember trying this, and it didn't work out on the curved bits of the moulding. I'll have to dig out the mitre saw and have another go.

Looking back at the mouldings in the OPs photo, which I should have done first, then I agree with Derek's answer, even if making the doors from scratch. No need for stile and rail cutters, just mitre the mouldings and offset the mortice/tenon faces accordingly.

Mark Easingwood08/10/2021 22:40:58
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scribed_m&t_joints.jpg

Basically, scribe the tenon shoulder over the moulding, as others have said.

Top Left shows the kind of joint produced with the scribe and mould cutters, as Jason linked to, which creates a stub tenon which fits into the panel groove. This relies on the glue holding the joint together, great for cupboard doors, no use for house doors. (This was done using Spindle Moulder Cutter Blocks).

Top Right shows through scribed joints, the Sapele one was done on the Tenoning Machine in the background, the Softwood one by Bandsaw/Hand Tools.

Bottom Left, the kind of gouges required to create scribes by hand, are the in-cannel type, i.e. inside bevel.

Bottom Right, when scribing wide rails on Doors etc, if doing it by hand you only need to scribe ½ inch to 1 inch say, the remaining shoulder can be left square, and a section of moulding chiseled away on the stile, similar to the drawing, which is of a frame.

Mark.

Pete White09/10/2021 08:19:16
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I may be wrong but I think that first picture shows a normal mortice and tenon with the moulding added with a 45 degree mitre. This is the easy way to produce the result with minimum fuss and tooling.

Style and rail cutters are a good way to to go for small doors where the cutters produce the matching scribe profile and the "mortice and tenon?", using a router table or spindle moulder

For large doors where more strengh is required, provided by a normal mortice and tenon, expensive cutters are required which run in spindle mounder. I don't think I have seen router cutters which could produce such a joint easily?

Pete

Pete White09/10/2021 08:31:01
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Duplicate post, internet needs winding up ...........again angry 2

Edited By Pete White on 09/10/2021 08:32:51

JasonB09/10/2021 10:17:07
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As cutters would be required to form the moulding and cut the slot anyway there is no need to buy any additional tooling if you pick the right cutters. The reversible ones that Wealdon do can be reconfigured to cut both the mould & slot as well as the scribe & stub tenon with the added bonus of the included shim washers allowing you to tweak the fit.These type of sets are best for cabinet doors where you are typically working with 18-22mm thick material

If you are not using too fancy a moulding on a thicker door than you can get away with cutting a tenon and then use a jointing cutter to scribe the tenon's shoulder and obviously the matching cutter would be used to do the moulding. OK for the odd occasional use but the proper spindle moulder door sets are the way to go if doing a lot. Though a well equiped modern workshop may well have tooling of a CNC machine rather than a traditional spindle moulder.

Pete White10/10/2021 07:26:42
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Thankyou for the link to those jointing cutters Jason, I had not spotted those, dispite using that firm for years.

They could solve my problem for making a few sash windows soon. I made a pair of sashes for a small back bedroom by profiling after the window was made, obviously giving round corners, not a good result for a lounge or dining room.

I was suprised that spindle knives were not available to fit my 40 x 4 block, with similar profiles. I seem to remember finding some in a catalogue, for a bigger block, but it was looking expensive?

Pete

JasonB10/10/2021 07:41:43
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The door (Cabinet and internal 35mm doors) type cutters are available for a 40mm block but if it's the sash cutters you were referring to then as they tend to mould the profile and glass rebate all in one you would have a job doing it with a 40mm wide knife as stock would traditionally be 44mm and more for Double glazing. There is also the need to have a reasonable diameter at the cutting edge so you can form a suitable length tenon which the often smaller diameter 40mm blocks can't do.

Companies doing a reasonable amount of windows would have tenon cutters for this rather than a spindle so would have two blocks to go above and below the tenon.

The other thing to remember if you are making MDF doors is that the HSS spindle knives won't last long so the TCT router cutters are the better be here. Must say most of the painted cabinet doors I tend to make are just plain shaker style which I do with a wobble saw and loose tenons cut from the panel material. A panel mound will give them some character for amore period look.

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