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Not enoughh CO2 ?

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Anthony Knights21/09/2021 08:31:07
562 forum posts
234 photos

Apparently, the carbon left over from the natural gas used to make ammonia (fertiliser) gives carbon dioxide used in the food industry. High gas price = shut down fertiliser plant = no CO2 = food shortage.

We have been told for years, that there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere, so why don't we extract it? The answer is probably that the actual amount is so miniscule at about 450 parts per million, that it's not an economic proposition.

I will now retire to my nuclear shelter.

Tony Pratt 121/09/2021 08:55:46
1692 forum posts
8 photos

Most probably cheaper as a bye product? The worrying thing is that a minister says 'don't worry we will sort it', on another note this situation or a variation on it has been widely predicted for years not the CO2 issue but our reliance on foreign energy.angry

Tony

J Hancock21/09/2021 08:58:37
724 forum posts

Add to that , major users of CO2 are..............our remaining AGR nukes !

No CO2..........no electricity.

Ady121/09/2021 08:59:43
avatar
4728 forum posts
714 photos

Nationalisation of our energy sector is the only real answer

Privatisation is for things like cars and shoes

Water and energy, like healthcare, are state level industries

not done it yet21/09/2021 09:03:34
6322 forum posts
20 photos

The CO2 produced from methane is much the same as burning fossil fuels. Methane is used to generate (dirty) hydrogen for the Haber ptocess where hydrogen and nitrogen are combined at high temperature and presure to produce Ammonia.

There is so much process CO2 that could be used (but the gases would need to be ‘scrubbed’ and further purified far more than that from methane usage. Think here every power station, cement works, etc.

The Haber process requires very much refined feedstock as the catalysts must not be ‘poisoned’, so it is the easier way to go.

The most effective way to absorb CO2from the atmosphere is probably by photosynthesis - but the human race is destroying forests at an alarming rate. How more stupid can the human race get? It is a bit like ‘burning your bridges’,IMO.

450ppm might seem miniscule to you but in the scenario of heating the whole planet, it is far from miniscule. Think here that CFCs (although in ppm, too) were totally responsible for destroying the protective Ozone layer in the atmosphere. If CFCs had not been banned, and had been continually released into the atmosphere at an ever increasing rate, there would now be a huge problem for life on Earth. That problem took only a few years to be diagnosed and stop further emissions, but the Ozone layer has still not yet recovered.

Nitrogen, the atmospheric component for the Haber process happens to be about 800,000ppm of the air that we breathe - nearly 2000 times more abundant than CO2.

Air is liquified to produce pure gases but do we really need to process 2000 times the volume for each volume of CO2, when a feedstock of a thousand (and more) concentration is available from current gas streams? I think it is either in Spain or Portugal where electricity generation exhaust gas (or some other industrial process) is being used for CO2 capture. Not sure what they do with the captured CO2, but likely used in industry/agriculture in some way.

Edited By not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:06:27

Ady121/09/2021 09:09:00
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4728 forum posts
714 photos

It needs to be "food grade" CO2 as well

Oven Man21/09/2021 09:09:41
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157 forum posts
31 photos

Looks like wev'e run out of wind recently as well. When are we going to realise that the most reliable source of renewable energy is tidal power. I am not anti wind power but I do consider it to be only an interim solution to our energy "problems".

Peter

Ady121/09/2021 09:14:24
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4728 forum posts
714 photos

The wind situation is amazing, I have never seen 2 months of dead calm weather like this before up in jockland

It's fabulous, warm and almost continental, so luxurious

Totally useless for energy production though

Circlip21/09/2021 09:17:55
1353 forum posts

CO2, no problem. Use extracted atmosphere from houses of parliament. One weeks storage should last months.

Regards Ian.

not done it yet21/09/2021 09:31:29
6322 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by Circlip on 21/09/2021 09:17:55:

CO2, no problem. Use extracted atmosphere from houses of parliament. One weeks storage should last months.

Regards Ian.

A bit political, that. But from there it is only hot air? The living-dead don’t need to actually breathe?

norm norton21/09/2021 09:51:06
162 forum posts
7 photos

Many years ago, when we had cardice (solid CO2) deliveries, the CO2 had come from distiller's group. There must be masses of it produced by brewing but I guess the fertiliser by-product has been cheaper.

SillyOldDuffer21/09/2021 09:55:04
Moderator
7549 forum posts
1680 photos

Posted by not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:03:34:

...

How more stupid can the human race get?

...

No need to be more stupid than we already are! Give up energy today for reasons I don't understand? Party on, and sod the consequences. And anyway, as we'll all be dead before the result of burning gigantic quantities of fossil fuels gets really bad, there's no reason for silly old duffers to change.

All you have to do is denounce 'Greens', 'Tree-huggers', scientific consensus and all the evidence that anything is wrong. Unfortunately the evidence of climate change is still quite subtle, and many people won't believe it until they are personally effected. Central London flooded twice in 10 years might do it, and the probability of it happening is rising!

Thing is humanity are plain bad at assessing risk. This is true even when people understand the problem, and worse when there are vested interests. When it comes to risk we are all thickos, but some are thicker than others. Some people really believe the world is flat, and the moon landings were faked, and that Stalin was an Uncle Joe.

Dave

Ady121/09/2021 10:08:33
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4728 forum posts
714 photos

Giving billions of subsidies to private energy companies and receiving zero ownership rights in return is the best idea, a great policy

Just like paying someone to build you a house and then renting it from them

Samsaranda21/09/2021 10:11:59
avatar
1207 forum posts
5 photos

It seems the current problem of energy supply companies affected by the rise in gas prices going bust is because the proliferation of energy companies happened because energy was cheap on the wholesale market so it was like a casino with some companies making large profits, but because they didn’t invest their profits to cover the day when energy costs would rise, they have now become insolvent with no capital to carry them through. I agree with Ady1 this scenario would be much different if the energy industry was under state control. As it is with private companies running industries such as energy, as consumers we not only pay the cost for the energy but we also have to pay shareholders dividends, and it looks in the present case that as taxpayers we will also be paying via the Treasury to sort out the consequences of the bankrupt companies. Dave W

KWIL21/09/2021 10:30:01
3422 forum posts
66 photos

The bottomless pit of subsidies to state owned assets? No not again.

All we need now is for Mr P to stop gas supplies.

Russell Eberhardt21/09/2021 10:36:23
avatar
2704 forum posts
86 photos

Back to the food shortage problem; Isn't it possible to change over to nitrogen in the packaging? I seem to remember that's what was used in the past.

Another possibility is just to use air from which most of the oxygen has been removed. A molecular sieve is used to extract oxygen from the air for medical use.

Russell

Anthony Knights21/09/2021 13:42:48
562 forum posts
234 photos
Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 21/09/2021 10:36:23:

Back to the food shortage problem; Isn't it possible to change over to nitrogen in the packaging? I seem to remember that's what was used in the past.

More sensible than trying to extract CO2 from the air.

pgk pgk21/09/2021 13:54:12
2317 forum posts
293 photos

A large part of the food industry shortage is the use of CO2 'anaesthesia' pre-slaughter - since it's heavier than 'air' one can herd animals into a depression filled with the stuff. Whilst still not exactly humane, it's better than most alternative ways of killing pigs for food.

pgk

Harry Wilkes21/09/2021 14:34:36
avatar
1174 forum posts
64 photos
Posted by Anthony Knights on 21/09/2021 08:31:07:

Apparently, the carbon left over from the natural gas used to make ammonia (fertiliser) gives carbon dioxide used in the food industry. High gas price = shut down fertiliser plant = no CO2 = food shortage.

We have been told for years, that there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere, so why don't we extract it? The answer is probably that the actual amount is so miniscule at about 450 parts per million, that it's not an economic proposition.

I will now retire to my nuclear shelter.

Cant afford nuclear shelter so a dark corner will have to do wink

H

mark costello 121/09/2021 19:37:07
avatar
669 forum posts
12 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/09/2021 09:55:04:

Posted by not done it yet on 21/09/2021 09:03:34:

...

How more stupid can the human race get?

...

No need to be more stupid than we already are! Give up energy today for reasons I don't understand? Party on, and sod the consequences. And anyway, as we'll all be dead before the result of burning gigantic quantities of fossil fuels gets really bad, there's no reason for silly old duffers to change.

All you have to do is denounce 'Greens', 'Tree-huggers', scientific consensus and all the evidence that anything is wrong. Unfortunately the evidence of climate change is still quite subtle, and many people won't believe it until they are personally effected. Central London flooded twice in 10 years might do it, and the probability of it happening is rising!

Thing is humanity are plain bad at assessing risk. This is true even when people understand the problem, and worse when there are vested interests. When it comes to risk we are all thickos, but some are thicker than others. Some people really believe the world is flat, and the moon landings were faked, and that Stalin was an Uncle Joe.

Dave

Some would take that as a challenge.

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