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Whatever must IKB be thinking ?!

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Michael Gilligan08/05/2021 09:48:20
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Today’s News: **LINK**

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/08/major-rail-disruption-operators-inspect-trains-crack-fears/

MichaelG.

Ady108/05/2021 10:03:57
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Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

Andrew Johnston08/05/2021 10:11:24
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Probably thinking "thank beep it wasn't one of mine". Funny thing but cast iron and railway bridges didn't mix - for example the Dee bridge and, of course, the Tay bridge.

Andrew

Tony Pratt 108/05/2021 10:16:04
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Posted by Ady1 on 08/05/2021 10:03:57:

Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

P**s poor design I would guess but reading the media will not give you the facts, I like your joke about cast iron, it was a joke wasn't it?wink

Tony

Frances IoM08/05/2021 11:14:05
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they replaced comfortable trains on both the east coast & the GWR with what have been reckoned to be the most uncomfortable long distance trains ever built - specified it seems by the 'experts' in DfT (their last 'masterpiece' was the Thameslink trains) - maybe once the Gov has recovered from Covid they might get around to publishing the long awaited Williams report and appoint the arms-length guiding mind that is so required to recover from the failed franchise model and the utter stupidity of the 'do not use public transport' messages - which will probably kill more people from air pollution than use of trains would have from covid.

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:52

KWIL08/05/2021 11:44:10
3395 forum posts
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Posted by Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:05:
they replaced comfortable trains on both the east coast & the GWR with what have been reckoned to be the most uncomfortable long distance trains ever built - specified it seems by the 'experts' in DfT (their last 'masterpiece' was the Thameslink trains) - maybe once the Gov has recovered from Covid they might get around to publishing the long awaited Williams report and appoint the arms-length guiding mind that is so required to recover from the failed franchise model and the utter stupidity of the 'do not use public transport' messages - which will probably kill more people from air pollution than use of trains would have from covid.

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:52

Since when has a Government Department designed trains? As for the comment on air pollution versus Covid, stick to facts.

J Hancock08/05/2021 12:11:59
617 forum posts

WE really need to see the specification details , to check whether parameters of pitch and yaw were ever included.

High speed on straight lines and high speed on 'S' bend lines , completely different.

Frances IoM08/05/2021 12:12:36
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go read about the seating on Thameslink that was specified by the DfT. Ok they didn't design the trains but specified the seating etc (ie what the passenger judges the comfort on) on the new hi speed trains

Increased pollution from cars has been commented on by many including one coroner - air pollution in some parts of London exceeds legal limits by a large margin
duncan webster08/05/2021 12:19:38
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They will bring back the HSTs soon, surely the best investment in rolling stock ever, and designed by the hated BR engineers. It can't be difficult to back fit sewage retention tanks, and we can live with manually opening doors surely. I went for a job at Derby once working on APT, it was obvious to even a newish graduate that they were trying to do too much too quickly on a shoestring budget, but what a missed opportunity.

Nicholas Farr08/05/2021 12:58:05
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Hi, he might be thinking; so much for computers, CAD and modern ways.

Regards Nick.

SillyOldDuffer08/05/2021 13:38:00
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Posted by Nicholas Farr on 08/05/2021 12:58:05:

Hi, he might be thinking; so much for computers, CAD and modern ways.

Regards Nick.

I doubt it, IKB was thoroughly modern. Lots of maths plus a good understanding of materials. IKB is my hero too but he made many mistakes, such as:

  • Broad gauge
  • Longitudinal rather than transverse railway sleepers
  • All his railway locomotive designs
  • The Atmospheric Railway
  • Clifton Suspension Bridge (started when he was 24, finished by Hawkshaw and Barlow to a heavily revised design in 1864, 7 years after Brunel's death.)
  • Many Wooden bridges (though arguably deliberately built cheap so railways could start earning money asap, with the intention of replacing them.)
  • Great Eastern sticking on the ways; killing a passenger when the heating exploded; crashing into Ireland because Brunel didn't know how to correct a magnetic compass on an iron ship; and the ship failing economically because it was too big to fit into contemporary harbours.
  • Discovering the need for disciplined use of track and improved signalling on the GWR by running his train into a scheduled service.
  • Sonning Cutting, which caused the government to legislate for safety on railways. Many causalities due to the passenger carriages being crushed between the goods wagons and the tender: the passenger wagons weren't built strong enough to survive even a slow collision.

Fortunately his list of successes is even longer! Perhaps all geniuses are flawed, and innovation is always risky. He was up against stiff competition too: many of the engineers of that time were big hitters. Samuel Smile's "Lives of the Engineers" is a good read.

Dave

Michael Gilligan08/05/2021 14:18:14
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IKB has been in contact ‘from the other side’ to tell me what he is thinking:

Comparatively lightweight vehicle; running at high speeds; powered by an engine for which it was not originally designed ... Mmmm !!

MichaelG.

Howard Lewis08/05/2021 14:43:04
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I don't think that IKB can be held responsible for another much more junior engineer closing a valve, (which should have remained open ) resulting in an explosion.

Great Eastern was bedvilled by the interaction between the builder and IKB. More likely Scott Russel should, be blamed for launching problems.. And since Great Eastern was not the first iron hulled ship, (Great Britain? ) problems in compensating the compass were not his fault. Rather, that in so many areas, he was ahead of both current thinking, and technology.

Broad gauge allowed GWR trains to run faster than those on standard gauge railways, providing more space and greater passenger comfort. It failed because of the lack of ability to see the advantages of all the other competitors. Possibly, because due to their lack of vision for their projects, and probably parsimony, they had already built to a smaller loading gauge..

IKB was undoubtedly taken in by the Samuda brothers, And again current technology let him down.

Had he been born 130 years later later, he would have had access to more modern materials and technology which might have precluded some of the sealing problems, but not that of a lack of propulsive effort.

Passengers being killed and injured in crashes was not unique to GWR. GWR used the vacuum brake when contemporaries were using the chain brake which was not fail safe.

Clifton suspension bridge was finished late, not due to lack of engineering ability, but lack of finance.

Anyone who thinks that IKB's bridge designs were bad should visit Maidenhead and look at his bridge. Still carrying trains a that are far heavier and faster than even it's designer might have envisaged.

Compare with Thomas Bouch and the High Girders of the Tay Bridge!

Look how much time passed after build and eventual destruction at Dawlish.

He might well be thinking how limited is the scope and specialisation of modern engineers.

Howard

Frances IoM08/05/2021 15:07:03
1118 forum posts
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the HSTs have already been broken up - some will have a 2nd life in smaller sets some in GWR as the Castle sets and others in Scotland.
They were very comfortable especially in 1st class
Harry Wilkes08/05/2021 16:07:15
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1125 forum posts
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Posted by Ady1 on 08/05/2021 10:03:57:

Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

 

yes I remember as a teenager visit a company in Birmingham Metro-Cammell I believe who produced early diesel multiple unit not that I was a fan but they would always take the time to show us around

H

 

Edited By Harry Wilkes on 08/05/2021 16:13:51

Nigel McBurney 108/05/2021 16:08:44
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I reckon IKB would be wondering why do we have to go to the orient for the design and build of trains,

Frances IoM08/05/2021 16:31:11
1118 forum posts
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that is pure politics - short termism in the city and dislike of unionised labour. Let's see what happens to the levelling up in the old industrial areas.
Michael Gilligan08/05/2021 17:30:34
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18080 forum posts
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I suppose Newton Aycliffe might qualify as being on the ‘Orient side’ of England

**LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Newton_Aycliffe

angel

MichaelG.

Stuart Smith 508/05/2021 18:11:48
204 forum posts
26 photos

Just looking at Michaels link to the Newton Aycliffe plant, it looks like they don’t actually manufacture there, just final assembly.

Quote “ No actual manufacturing operation takes place at the site; it assembles components built elsewhere into completed trains.

Stuart

Nicholas Wheeler 108/05/2021 18:21:36
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Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 08/05/2021 16:08:44:

I reckon IKB would be wondering why do we have to go to the orient for the design and build of trains,

Brunel was a pioneer using state of the art engineering to do something interesting - he wouldn't be farting around with trains. He'd have been building Tesla cars better, or have people on their way to Mars rather than just predicting it might happen in our children's lifetimes.

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