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Small saw. Proxxon or something else

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John Smith 4721/04/2021 01:18:36
257 forum posts
11 photos

Hello

I am thinking of buying a "Bench circular saw KS 230" from Proxxon.
Specs: 8,000rpm, 85 Watts, weight approx 1.8kg.


Although I think Proxxon are over-priced and under-engineered I like the compact/portable size and I think that over all the design (including the cover over the saw blade and built-in protractor) looks quite clever.

But will it be able to cut/grind mild steel and stainless steel?

If not can you recommend any other alternative?

Thanks

J

PS Or what about the Proxxon FET Table Saw?
Specs: 7,000 rpm, 200 Watts, weight c. 6Kg

Pete.21/04/2021 02:30:36
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Hi John, those are for woodwork, even if the machine did possess the power to cut steel, I don't think you'd find an 80mm blade capable of cutting steel, I've never seen one.

A good hacksaw with a high tension ability would be better, or a horizontal Bandsaw with table to use vertically.

John Smith 4721/04/2021 02:56:24
257 forum posts
11 photos

I need to cut straighter lines and more accurately placed lines and faster than is possible with a good hacksaw.

I recently needed to cut some 0.10mm steel, which I needed to keep perfectly flat. The metal was way too thin for a hacksaw - the teeth just made total mess. I tried a nibbler and even a pair of scissor but they both made a mess of the flat surface.

The only thing that worked was a small abrasive cutting disk. Sparks everywhere of course, but the final surface was dead flat after a little de-burring.

BUT my problem is doing longer cuts with at disk...

It is for a domestic environment and I don't a dedicated space. So any machine needs to be portable.

John Smith 4721/04/2021 03:34:39
257 forum posts
11 photos

Another circular saw option would be this:

"NovelLife Mini Hobby Table Saw with Miter Gauge,3 Inch HSS Circular Saw Blade,96W Power Supply for DIY Handmade Wooden Model Crafts, Printed Circuit Board Cutting"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/NovelLife-Circular-Handmade-Printed-Circuit/dp/B07S3N9T7T/ref=sr_1_1




Or maybe a Rutlands Mini Table Saw?
https://www.rutlands.com/sp+sawing-power-saws-mini-table-saws-mini-table-saw-rutlands+rw1073#nogo


Looks very precise:
"Digital read out to an accuracy of 0.001mm" (if you believe it!)
200 watts, (slightly) variable speed 4400 to 6800
80mm diameter blades...
Not insanely heavy (10Kg)
However it only talks about cutting NON ferrous metals.
"Precise straight sawing of wood, plastic and non ferrous metal"


Or should I be thinking about a hobby/table-top band saw (if I can find a way to cut STRAIGHT lines)
Dremel MS20 Moto-Saw Scroll Saw

 

But like I say, I am currently favouring abrasion, rather than any kind of cutting for if and when I next need to cut very thin (0.1mm) steel plate. Mostly I shall be cutting 1.0mm mild or stainless steel.

 

PS Is there any way to edit the title of the post after you have started a thread?

Also the animated GIF on the right are a nightmare of a distraction! I need to find an extension that stops all GIF images from animating. 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 03:39:28

Pete.21/04/2021 04:48:02
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As already said, I doubt you'll find any 80mm steel cutting blades, sawing steel is generally not a process used for finished edges where high standards of straightness is required.

None of those woodwork hobby tools will meet your very high requirement standards, or were you planning on milling the edges after?

Have you considered a bench shear like this? This is a tool commonly used for cutting straight lines in sheet metal.

If you keep the work left of the blade during cuts, it should be possible to keep it flat.

David George 121/04/2021 06:27:20
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1656 forum posts
497 photos

In the past I made thin strips of steel for a mould to make cooling channels in a ceramic turbine blade and we cut them on a surface grinder with a slitting blade perhaps you can get a small bench top surface grinder or a ceramic tile cutter which will take a slitting wheel.

David

John Haine21/04/2021 06:57:51
4188 forum posts
242 photos

Good suggestion from David - see this from B&Q at £40.

**LINK**

Alternatively, for very thin shim, I use two ways to cut 0.1mm BeCu sheet for pendulum suspension springs. One is using an office guillotine which is quite effective and hardly affects flatness. The other is to clamp the material in a machine vice with the bit you want in the jaws, and use an old wood chisel to cut off the excess.

Roger B21/04/2021 07:19:35
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167 forum posts
76 photos

The 50mm Proxxon solid carbide blade 28 011 will certainly cut steel although the KS 230 may run a little fast.

**LINK**

This is one slitting a steel 'taperlock' style bush. They a quite useful as small slitting blades.

dscf0505.jpg

JasonB21/04/2021 07:22:57
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21467 forum posts
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If you go through with buying a mill that you were asking about in your other thread then a slitting saw blade in that could be used to cut sheet, subject to overall size and holding methods. Although you can get 80mm slitting saw blades I would suggest a smaller dia on a mill the size of the Sherline. Cut off disc could also be used in the same way

As for the Gifs and adverts down the side of the page, they help pay for the site, without them it may not exist and you would not have access to all this "free" information and help

Edited By JasonB on 21/04/2021 07:46:38

Michael Gilligan21/04/2021 07:52:36
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18992 forum posts
945 photos
Posted by Roger B on 21/04/2021 07:19:35:

The 50mm Proxxon solid carbide blade 28 011 will certainly cut steel […]

.

That’s useful to know, Roger ...

The description does not claim that ability, but I see that you are using it on a more appropriate spindle than that of the KS230

Thanks yes

MichaelG.

.

Ref.

Solid carbide saw blade
50mm diameter (10mm bore). 0.5mm thick. Fine toothed: ideal for cutting fibreglass sheets up to 3mm, non-ferrous metals, duro-plastics and other 'difficult' materials.

NO 28 011

Stuart Munro 121/04/2021 08:45:29
108 forum posts

Hi John,

I model in wood and metal and faced this same dilemma. I bought the Proxxon FET which is (mostly) great for fine wood cutting but useless for any metals. Even the non ferrous one that I mostly work with. I have to compliment Michael on being able to cut steel with the solid carbide blade - I found with my Proxxon FET, whilst the cut was good, the FET overheated and cut out.

My solution was a guided handsaw such as the Stanley 1-20-800 Adjustable Mechanical mitre box - sorry don't know how to paste a picture here but it retails on Amazon for £37.99. Its a long suspended saw with changeable blades in a metal adjustable frame. (you need to look on amazon to see what I mean).

I've had mine for many years and its not a Stanley but looks the same, so check first that it has the option for fine tooth blades.

Mine cuts very accurately through most materials. But if you are looking to cut heavy pieces you do need something powered, unless you have very strong arms!

Stuart

Michael Gilligan21/04/2021 08:51:20
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18992 forum posts
945 photos
Posted by Stuart Munro 1 on 21/04/2021 08:45:29:

[…]

I have to compliment Michael on being able to cut steel with the solid carbide blade -

.

I think Roger deserves the compliment

MichaelG.

Stuart Munro 121/04/2021 08:59:29
108 forum posts

Michael, Roger, Mia cupla!

I also use a slitting saw for fine work but obviously this can not cope with cutting off stock neatly of removing large pieces from an object before milling the rest. The 'Adjustable Mitre Box/Saw' works well for that purpose.

Stuart

Martin Kyte21/04/2021 11:39:32
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2570 forum posts
45 photos

It's more expensive but you could consider the Proxxon Micromot MBS 240/E Bandsaw. It's small but with a sled you can cut wood and metal in straight lines. They do mention diamond bands which will deal with glass and ceramics too. I have a freind who bought one and he was very happy with it for brass and steel for clocks and small model engines. It's a genuine all rounder although as I said small.

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 21/04/2021 11:40:01

Edited By Martin Kyte on 21/04/2021 11:40:20

Derek Lane21/04/2021 11:44:12
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528 forum posts
98 photos

Being a woodworker wanting to get into model engineering I would never consider using woodworking cutting type tools on metal.

I have a small belt/disc sander which I use on wood but will be buying a second one for metal to avoid contamination I know it is not the same as cutting tools.

I have worked with metal quite a bit in the past in my previous job as well as sell machines so am aware of the limitations of many of them.

One exception may be a powered scrollsaw/fretsaw with the correct blade but only suitable really for thin metals. Getting a straight line takes a little practice and may need a false table with zero clearance if the item is small

Edited By Derek Lane on 21/04/2021 11:45:56

Edited By Derek Lane on 21/04/2021 11:58:16

Martin Kyte21/04/2021 11:47:31
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2570 forum posts
45 photos
Posted by Derek Lane on 21/04/2021 11:44:12:

Being a woodworker wanting to get into model engineering I would never consider using woodworking cutting type tools on metal.

I have a small belt/disc sander which I use on wood but will be buying a second one for metal to avoid contamination I know it is not the same as cutting tools

Lovely to have the choice. Even more ideal if you can run to separate workshops. The OP seemed to want a saw that would do both.

regards Martin

John Smith 4721/04/2021 12:15:56
257 forum posts
11 photos

@Pete - I need the metal to stay absolutely flat after it has been cut.
In my experience sheers never seem to achieve this.

@David George 1 & John Haine
Yes from what I understand, small desktop circular saw-type machine can't properly 'cut' mild steel because they spin to fast. I am also slightly nervous about the rear (rising) edge of the thing, but at least they will cut in a straight line (unlike a manual hacksaw!)

So my instincts are to go for some kind of 'grinding' cut rather than a cutting blade.
I googled it but to be honest, I don't really know what a "surface grinder with a slitting blade" is!

I am assuming that that tile-cutter does its cutting with a grinding wheel - probably with diamonds in it. That's an interesting line of thinking! Even if the build quality looks v cheap & sure enough the reviews are terrrible.

Fwiw, here's another one:
==> "QEP Diamond Wheel Wet Tile Cutter 450W"

https://www.screwfix.com/p/performance-power-ptc450e-450w-electric-tile-cutter-230-240v/469gt
110mm "general purpose" diamond blade,
"For wet cutting only. General purpose will cut: ceramic, marble, granite, stone."
- 'suspiciously cheap' at £34. Build quality looks low for precision work, but at least it is well reviewed. 
Designed to be cooled by water it seems. 
450w,  8Kg, but rather slow - just 2950 rpm. My steel parts will just get hotter and hotter, me thinks without being removed fast enough.


Can anyone tell me how well a diamond-embedded blade cuts mild steel?

I was very struck but just how well aluminium oxide & Corundum cutting disks cut steel, using my hand held highspeed drill (20,000RPM) but only once you get them up to very high speeds.

Unfortunately mine is only 40watts (an old MICROMOT 50/EF) and torque suffers, but it does the job.

 



One option would be to uprade to a more powerful drill that has better control of torque

Precision drill/grinder FBS 240/E  **LINK** 
"For drilling, milling, grinding, polishing, cleaning, carving and engraving."
"The full wave electronic speed control results in virtually constant torque, even at lower speeds,"
5,000 - 22,000rpm. 100W. Weight 450g.

 

My main problem then becomes finding a circular table type housing to mount the thing on.

...Which takes me back to the Table saw FET (IF I stay with Proxxon - which in many ways I would prefer not to!)

HOWEVER the FET Table Saw is only 7000 RPM even though it is more powerful thant the hand tools (being 200watts), so I don't think it will cut very well using abrasion.


@JasonB
Re I'm still thinking about a milling machine. Buying a Sherline would be a huge investment for me.

 

PROXXON SOLID CARBIDE SAW BLADE
https://www.axminstertools.com/proxxon-solid-carbide-saw-blade-702072

@Roger B - that 50mm Proxxon solid carbide blade 28 011 may cut steel but it's certainly not designed to do so "non-ferrous" only.


@JasonB - Call me unusual, but my brain simply cannot function with flashing graphic like that. I have a zero tolerance of flashing adverts.

@Stuart Munro 1 - I thought those "Stanley 20-800 Adjustable Angle Clamping Mitre Box"
do look interesting. But can they cut steel? At a quick look, I thought that they were only for wood, no?

IF they can cut steel then they DO look useful but they won't allow me to cut sheets of material
(plust they are a fraction bulky... and won't be able to cut very thin stuff...)

MY THINKING THUS FAR
So far I am still leaning towards a small, high-speed, "circular saw type" design, but using a grinding process to do the cutting, and probably using a reinforced aluminium oxide or Corundum disk. I know it will wear but I don't think that will matter.

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 12:22:51

Edited By John Smith 47 on 21/04/2021 12:27:13

JasonB21/04/2021 12:22:50
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21467 forum posts
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The "table saws" have a lower rpm due to the fact they take a larger diameter blade than the hand held tools. if you work out the speed at the cutting edge for both diameter cutters it will be about the same.

John Smith 4721/04/2021 12:28:07
257 forum posts
11 photos
Posted by JasonB on 21/04/2021 12:22:50:

The "table saws" have a lower rpm due to the fact they take a larger diameter blade than the hand held tools. if you work out the speed at the cutting edge for both diameter cutters it will be about the same.

Ah yes, good point!

Pete.21/04/2021 13:26:08
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648 forum posts
102 photos

David's idea of of an abrasive disc in the table saw style machine is a good one, I think my 18v angle grinder runs about the speed of that proxxon saw, you could use a good quality 1mm thick slitting disk, they have a 22mm centre hole, a small ring could easily be made to take the 10mm proxxon up the correct size for 100mm 1mm slitting disc for an angle grinder.

If the depth of cut is adjustable on the saw, you could slide it over in say 3 passes, about 0.3mm per pass should work.

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