Sellers who consistently misrepresent products
|Mark Rand||16/04/2021 22:10:08|
|985 forum posts|
There is a seller of steam related products in the Western part of the country that advertises on EBay. They consistently advertise continuous cast cast iron bar as 'meehanite', but when asked for certification or provenance cannot supply any, just say words to the effect of:-
"Hi, it is grade 250 cast iron and we do not have certification to send with it.
This winds me up more than a little bit, since the Meehanite process is more than a little bit specific, and only licenced by the Meehanite Company.
|john halfpenny||16/04/2021 22:20:00|
|153 forum posts|
Failure to supply certification does not mean it is not meehanite, but if it is not then the owner of the registered trade mark will have a straightforward enforcement case.
|Michael Gilligan||17/04/2021 00:11:01|
17832 forum posts
I feel sure that you know this already, Mark ... but for the benefit of others [including perhaps the aforementioned supplier], it’s worth noting that Meehanite is not one particular grade, but a range of similar materials with specific characteristics: **LINK**
The fact that they can confidently supply these variants is, itself, a good indicator of the process control.
5427 forum posts
Sounds like the term meehanite is going the way of words like kleenex, hoover and plexiglass. The trade names have come to refer to the product in general, regardless of maker.
|jimmy b||17/04/2021 06:09:46|
718 forum posts
I'd be surprised if any supplier to the model engineering world would be able to give a proper material cert.
5427 forum posts
Indeed. Usually only done for aircraft metals and the like. And the cert costs as much as the metal. Not something that would sit well with ME types.
|Nicholas Farr||17/04/2021 06:33:26|
2720 forum posts
Hi, well I got a couple of pieces of meehanite at two different times, at least ten years ago, maybe even 15 years, from Collage Engineering Supplies, but no certification came with either piece and both pieces were bought at one of the exhibitions. To be honest, didn't even give a thought about certification and I've never had any problems with any of the materials I bought from them in that time period.
20443 forum posts
I'm with hopper the term is often used with ref to CI bar or block. Like a lot of things on e-bay certain words in the title will get you towards the top of searches.
Having bought from them several times all I can say is it's good quality and suits my need from hacking out cylinders & cylinder heads to making piston rings. If anyone needs the branded stuff then source it elsewhere and expect to pay more.
Edited By JasonB on 17/04/2021 07:20:54
|Keith Hale||17/04/2021 08:20:49|
294 forum posts
What is meant by a "proper certificate?".
My personal experience of certification with regards to brazing and soldering alloys, is that this is something to which lip service at best is paid.
A certificate of analysis gives quantitative details of analysis relating to all or specified elements. These cost an arm and a leg whether produced in house or externally. The figures produced relate only to the sample analysed with the assumption that they reflect the bulk. In the 30+ years of running CuP Alloys, I never supplied one. The customer was not prepared to bear the cost.
A certificate of conformity is just that. It is a piece of paper confirming that the material meets a certain standard, which included the manufacturing tolerances relating to composition. Every brazing rod that I supplied had that. It formed part of the label. Generally speaking, UK manufacturing industries and model engineers were happy with that if the alloy performed as expected and the price was right. Occasionally I would provide an extra piece of paper that showed the manufacturing analytical tolerances. There was no charge!
But what some customers actually wanted was a certificate relating to the performance of the brazing alloy. How strong would the joints be? Such guarantees are impossible to get. I certainly never supplied one and I don't know of anyone who did or would. There are so many factors, over which l had no control that would affect such figures. One of these, as many followers of the forum know, is brazing technique.
I believe that all companies offer a disclaimer that it is the customers responsibility to ensure that we product performs as required.
It is possible to buy brazing alloys with an associated strength. This figure can relate to the strength of a drawn rod, which has no relationship whatsoever to the strength of the joints made. At one time you could buy brazing material that had a bonding temperature below the melting point of the alloy.
So, back to the beginning,
"What do you mean by a "proper certificate"?
Or, as mentioned earlier, do you simply trust your supplier knowing that he will keep you well advised such that you do achieve the full potential of his product.
Edited By Keith Hale on 17/04/2021 08:25:27
|not done it yet||17/04/2021 08:31:27|
|5853 forum posts|
If Hoover only received a penny for every time someone described their different make of vacuum cleaner incorrectly, profits would soar.🙂
Edited By not done it yet on 17/04/2021 08:32:21
|Nigel Graham 2||17/04/2021 08:53:37|
|1398 forum posts|
Odd question. Do I detect a commercial intention here?
Retailers to model-engineers cannot be expected to give QA certificates for materials, for two reasons
Firstly, QA schemes are costly and very bureaucratic, ultimately born by professional organisations demanding full traceability for the finished products they buy; usually under complex management-control plans like ISO900x and its forerunners, including the UK's MoD DEF-STAN technical-guarantee scheme.
Secondly, such schemes are meaningless and irrelevant to us buying small bits of metal for unique hobby projects. We are amateur users not making items "by way of trade" as the law has it, so do not need them!
Even for the trade, by no means all items have to be certified, or to be made from certified materials. .
This is for materials.
Finished products made commercially "by way of trade" are a different matter, and only for products covered by particular rules. The paper-chasing may or may not need include the materials, but the ultimate aims include showing the intrinsic safety of the finished assemblies - e.g. boilers and compressor-reservoirs ("Pressure Equipment" in law), and mains-powered electrical equipment.
As John and Jason indicate, our treaty with the seller is that we buy at a fair price, material that is fit for our purposes - and it is up to the buyer to ensure proper selection for purpose. That is very much by our choosing materials by own knowledge; and sellers by reputation or if a new name, appearing to be an honest dealer.
Mark - so why do you want traceable QA certificates for cast-iron?
|723 forum posts|
As said previously a certificate of material conformity is a specified requirement for parts in some industries where non conformance can affect the performance of the final part. This is important in parts used in nuclear and flight, not so much in most others. The certificate gives traceability to the initial material melt or whatever creation method so all the materials used are listed. All this checking costs money and in some cases the cost outweighs the part cost so material with certification is kept aside for just a particular customer. As model engineers we just accept material is as stated as so long as it is stainless, or plain steel it doesn’t matter unless another process such as hardening requires it, then all you can expect is the end of the material to be paint coded at best.
|Michael Gilligan||17/04/2021 09:30:43|
17832 forum posts
I can’t speak for Mark, but ... Having worked in Aerospace and Defence, I would consider proper certification to include full traceability of raw materials and manufacturing processes ... all the way back to the mine where the ore was extracted,
It can be done, and it is done ... at some cost.
... and the moment that certificate becomes separated from the material, the material becomes just ‘stuff’
Mark may or may not want [or need] certificated material ... but his post is actually more related to Trademark infringement, which is rife.
“Untraceable continiuously-cast Iron” would seem a more realistic description of the product on offer ... and that should be sufficient description for general use [without the need to advertise it by abusing a well-respected trademark].
|Mark Rand||17/04/2021 09:37:12|
|985 forum posts|
Part of my point is that "Grade 250" cast iron is a BS1452 grade. It isn't any Meehanite grade that is made or licensed.
If the product were what it is purported to be, it would at least have the correct name.
Search for "Meehanite grade 250" and the only hits you get will be for UK model engineering suppliers...
Bah! Humbug! I'm off to eat a slice of Cuthbert the Caterpillar cake with Bramwell's pickle on it.
|larry phelan 1||17/04/2021 10:01:15|
|992 forum posts|
Life can be so hard at times !!
20443 forum posts
I could not see the Trademark "M" being used in their e-bay listings or is it the tradename that is being questioned.
Also will the resulting barend left over from doing the job that is now sitting on the buyers bench be properly recorded and traceable?
As I said it's just a way of getting the item found on e-bay, how many listings have Myford or colchester in them yet are not their products or even specifically made for that make of machine.
Edited By JasonB on 17/04/2021 10:17:42
|Michael Gilligan||17/04/2021 10:34:04|
17832 forum posts
Not quite the same logic, Jason
... but life’s too short to worry about lack of probity in ebay listings
1092 forum posts
Following on from the comments of HowardT and MichaelG reference the traceability of materials that are used in Aerospace, Nuclear and other critical engineering situations, I have worked in both Aerospace and Nuclear industries, the supplier of the materials, supplies the necessary mill certs identified to the specific materials which will bear the “cast number” on every piece of the items in the batch. If the materials are broken down into smaller units then the original cast numbers will be used to identify those units. Where I worked we used a lot of Stainless type materials in bar form and castings, all were supplied with mill certs, fairly common practice. An interesting situation came to light a few years ago, I believe it was in France, a major supplier of high grade certified material used in mainly Aerospace but also I believe in Nuclear, had been falsifying the material certification to show that materials were of the required standard when they were not. This revelation had serious implications for certain industries who were supplied by this supplier, it all went very quiet after the initial disclosure. It shows that a system is only as good as the people who are operating it, quality certifications are meaningless unless there is a will to play the game. Dave W
|Michael Gilligan||17/04/2021 10:42:25|
17832 forum posts
If ‘Yes’ then it is still the material
If ‘No’ then it’s as I wrote: the material becomes just ‘stuff’
It’s a very simple concept.
|Dave Halford||17/04/2021 10:43:49|
|1439 forum posts|
You probably should be buying from here the 250 refers to the lowest tensile strength (250 to 350) and there is a Meehanite grade that matches that tensile strength.
But then you look somewhere else and grade 250 is claimed to be 150 to 200 on a known iffy metals site.
Miss spelling Meanite seems common to and suggests the trade mark is being defended.
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