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How to hold work for drilling on an ML7 using tailstock pad

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La Cathedrale23/02/2021 13:04:32
7 forum posts

I've just bought one of these arbor pads (both a flat and a vee) so I can put off buying a pillar drill until I've finished moving house - but it occured to me that I've no idea how I would hold work. Is it a case of holding the machine vice by hand against the pad? Or holding the work directly on the pad? I would have thought there was a high chance of hte work catching and cutting my hand !

Nigel Graham 223/02/2021 17:29:21
1246 forum posts
17 photos

No- certainly don't hold the work or vice by hand!

I assume you mean these for using on the lathe.

I have a couple of the V-form drill-pads with Morse taper shanks , and often wondered the same question. I would use tool-maker's clamps to hold the work on the pad. They are shown in old books on using the lathe, but not much more than brief notes on their use.

The V-pad is for drilling across the diameter of a rod, e.g. for split-pin holes. With care the drill should just about break through without cutting the pad itself, but without rigid clamping that is the most likely time for the drill to snatch and pull the work out of control, risking broken drill, damaged work and damaged you.

The flat pad needs protecting by a sacrificial pad between it and the work, unless it has a central hole or recess.

I had to look in Percy Blandford's Metal Turning (published in 1953), and based around using a Myford ML7 or similar) to glean anything about these tools. Essentially I've given it all here as the one thing missing is advice on holding the work or vice safely to the pad. You could use a hand-vice but it would be very awkward and you are still putting yourself rather close to things going round...

Larger work-pieces still within the lathe's capacity could be clamped in a 4-jaw chuck or to the faceplate, with the drill in a tailstock chuck. Balance the assembly it or use it at only low speeds. If you have a vertical slide that gives another option.

It occurs to me the V-pad could be a very useful accessory, if with some way to hold the work properly to it.

La Cathedrale24/02/2021 08:53:03
7 forum posts

Thank you Nigel

You DO hold a vice by hand in a drill press though, don't you?

Very strange that these are available and recommended, but don't seem to have anyone actually using them?

Michael Gilligan24/02/2021 09:09:55
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17641 forum posts
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As per my post on this recent thread: **LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=139671

 

==========

Nice exaple of one in use here: **LINK**

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/collet-holding-block.html

... on a Cowells 90CW lathe.

.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ it’s a rather busy page; so if you are in a hurry, look for the caption:

The spindle was mounted on the tailstock drill pad (with vee slot).  Toolmaker's clamps assist in holding the work in place.  The position for the register key was center drilled.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/02/2021 09:18:28

Hopper24/02/2021 10:07:34
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Posted by La Cathedrale on 24/02/2021 08:53:03:

Thank you Nigel

You DO hold a vice by hand in a drill press though, don't you?

 

Not without having it at least loosely bolted down I dont. Even a 1/8" drill bit will fling an unsecured vice across the workshop if its not bolted down and the bit catches.

Usually it will stop when it hits the the freshly painted petrol tank of your Brough Superior or the windscreen of the Minister of War's car.

So bolt the vice down but leave it lose enough to slide around into final position by hand is much safer.

But no idea about using those drill pads. Either clamp or at least use a piece of material long enough to rest against the bed or carriage with a bit of wood for protection. 

You can also bolt the small myford vice to the faceplate to hold small jobs for drilling. Fair bit of counter weight needed though.

Edited By Hopper on 24/02/2021 10:09:04

Edited By Hopper on 24/02/2021 10:13:29

SillyOldDuffer24/02/2021 10:18:48
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Posted by La Cathedrale on 24/02/2021 08:53:03:

...

You DO hold a vice by hand in a drill press though, don't you?

...

Not any more!

dsc03245.jpg

When the drill caught in this bit of brass strip I was surprised at the violence unleashed. Tore the vice clean out of my hand and the whole jumped and spun. Now I loosely bolt the machine vice to the table so the vice and work can't go far when there's a snatch!

I reckon it's ability to surprise makes the Drill Press the most dangerous tool in a metal workshop.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/02/2021 10:19:35

JasonB24/02/2021 10:24:09
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If your pads don't have a clamp then modify them like this one, a stepped clamping bar like you find on Keats Plates can be made for smaller dia work. A clamp like you get on "finger plates" could be added to the flat one.

They may be recommended in old books but most people have move don to having mills and drill presses so you don't see them used so much now.

Hopper24/02/2021 10:35:05
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5379 forum posts
129 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/02/2021 10:18:48:
Posted by La Cathedrale on 24/02/2021 08:53:03:

...

You DO hold a vice by hand in a drill press though, don't you?

...

Not any more!

dsc03245.jpg

When the drill caught in this bit of brass strip I was surprised at the violence unleashed. Tore the vice clean out of my hand and the whole jumped and spun. Now I loosely bolt the machine vice to the table so the vice and work can't go far when there's a snatch!

I reckon it's ability to surprise makes the Drill Press the most dangerous tool in a metal workshop.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/02/2021 10:19:35

Yep. Drill press is the No. 1 cause of industrial accidents. Or was when industry involved making things from metal and not coffee grounds and scalding water.

That does look nasty there. You did a good job on it.

Edited By Hopper on 24/02/2021 10:36:54

Nigel McBurney 124/02/2021 10:41:11
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845 forum posts
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Vee pad useful for drilling cross holes centrally in shafts,hold work to pad with two tool makers clamps,or just drill and tap two holes their axis at right angles to the centre of the vee close to the edge of the pad,then make a steel clamp with three holes,two holes are to bolt the clamp and work to the pad ,the third to spans the work held in the vee,to enable the drill to have clearance to reach the work piece , the bar clamp cost nothing and will not slip out of place.A simple way to use the flat pad is to secure a larger plate to the pad with counter sunk screws or skt head screws recessed in counterbores in the plate,the plate could be steel,aluminium,or a thick piece of MDF. drill a pattern of holes in the plate to secure a small vice,or to take strap clamps, also toolmakers clamps can be used. When securing work to the pad held in the tailstock,place a piece of ply or mdf on the bed to protect the bed just in case the vice or work slips while setting up,Use this arrangement until a decent drilling m/c can be purchased, small cheap ones are not a good buy. I bought my Fobco 54 years ago,and its still going strong,still has its original bearings,belt and Jacobs drill chuck and its now worth 5 times what I paid for it,plus for 30 years it helped earn a living.

Philip Rowe24/02/2021 11:06:47
205 forum posts
29 photos
Posted by La Cathedrale on 24/02/2021 08:53:03:

Very strange that these are available and recommended, but don't seem to have anyone actually using them?

Curiously enough l used my v version for the first time yesterday, I've had it close on 50 years and never had occasion to use it until now. I needed a couple of cross holes in a piece of 15mm dia stainless which was too big for my cross hole drilling jig, I only used a centre drill with the drill pad and then transferred the job to the drill press where I was able to clamp it securely for drilling the 6mm hole. TBH I was feeling quite apprehensive whilst using it but it did work OK.

Phil

Bo'sun24/02/2021 11:17:23
390 forum posts

Hi,

I've been using an excellent bit of kit from ARC. It's called an "MT2 Tailstock Vee Adaptor". Great for drilling cross holes in stock up to 24mm dia. Just wish they did one with larger stock holding capacity up to around 30mm dia.

mechman4824/02/2021 11:32:26
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2886 forum posts
449 photos

Bo'sun...'Just wish they did one with larger stock holding capacity up to around 30mm dia'.

Could you possibly machine the 'V' to accommodate your larger size 24 - 30 mm is a 3 mm face cut ea. side of the vee ? looking at the Arc page it looks as though there's just enough material left on ea face to do it.

George.

Bo'sun24/02/2021 11:53:22
390 forum posts

Hi George,

Unfortunately not. The distance between the clamping bolts is the limiting factor at just over 24mm. Also, I guess the tool is hardened.

Nick Clarke 324/02/2021 12:14:18
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1154 forum posts
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While I personally don't own a drill pad and if I did would use clamps as suggested in this thread, a quick internet image search does in fact show several instances of work being held against the pad by hand.

Colin Heseltine24/02/2021 13:20:32
569 forum posts
213 photos

I have used a small V pad on the Cowells lathe for drilling cross-holes in pins. I used a very small machinist clamp to hold the item being drilled. The holes was only .75mm dia.

Colin

Malc24/02/2021 14:00:27
101 forum posts
6 photos

Have had mine some time now and one of the first things I did was to make a “Holding strap” to keep work in place. Will try to post a picture.706c1085-b0a3-4622-8929-f6a62d31b241.jpeg

Nigel Graham 225/02/2021 13:25:21
1246 forum posts
17 photos

I seem to have caused some confusion and consternation above.

I said hand vice, not machine vice.

Totally different tools.

The hand-vice is a small tool whose jaws are the "feet" on connected legs, and is held in the hand. Some versions have an extended shank for better grip, or for holding in a drilled block of wood gripped in turn in the bench-vice. Obviously the hand-vice should be used only for holding small items against very low forces.

The machine-vice is the one designed to be, and indeed should be, clamped to the machine table. It is the machine-vice that is mentioned by Hopper and illustrated by Dave.

'

The book I cited (Blandford's Metal Turning) refers to drill pads but says nothing at all about clamping the work to them. If anything the author implies holding the work itself by hand!

Neither Ian Bradley (The Amateur's Workshop) nor L.H. Sparey (The Amateur's Lathe) mention drill-pads at all. Not even in the plethora of accessories they encourage you to make.

Hopper26/02/2021 01:08:38
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5379 forum posts
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Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 25/02/2021 13:25:21:

I seem to have caused some confusion and consternation above.

I said hand vice, not machine vice.

Totally different tools.

The hand-vice is a small tool whose jaws are the "feet" on connected legs, and is held in the hand. Some versions have an extended shank for better grip, or for holding in a drilled block of wood gripped in turn in the bench-vice. Obviously the hand-vice should be used only for holding small items against very low forces.

The machine-vice is the one designed to be, and indeed should be, clamped to the machine table. It is the machine-vice that is mentioned by Hopper and illustrated by Dave.

Never heard of or seen one. Pics on the net look like the modern equivalent would be a pair of vice grips or perhaps a toolmakers vice. I still would not use one in conjunction with a tailstock pad unless the handle was long enough to rest against the bed or carriage to guarantee non-rotation as even innocuously small drill bits can grab, especially on brass. I might be rather attaching small jobs to a longer piece of wood or steel flat bar to provide a safe long handle that cant possibly spin around. By which time you are probably as well off to do something like this:

dscn2391.jpg

Attach the job to the faceplate or a sub plate and drill it that way. The hole through the middle was drilled first, with two more retaining clamping bolts in those empty holes before the shown facing op was done.

On the other hand I have seen small Chinese drill presses at garage sales for as little as $25 and they are a bit sloppy in the quill but useable as a starter machine and easier than all this.

Edited By Hopper on 26/02/2021 01:13:12

Edited By Hopper on 26/02/2021 01:16:04

Michael Gilligan26/02/2021 06:51:33
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17641 forum posts
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Hand Vice = a variation upon this theme: **LINK**

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co431035/watchmakers-hand-vice-vice

Sometime, as Nigel mentions, have a handle

MichaelG.

Bo'sun26/02/2021 09:58:23
390 forum posts
Posted by Malc on 24/02/2021 14:00:27:

Have had mine some time now and one of the first things I did was to make a “Holding strap” to keep work in place. Will try to post a picture.706c1085-b0a3-4622-8929-f6a62d31b241.jpeg

That now looks very similar to the "MT2 Tailstock Vee Adaptor" that I mentioned earlier from ARC. Wouldn't be without it.

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