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New Start on LBSC's 3.5" Petrolea

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br09/02/2021 17:01:00
468 forum posts
6 photos
Posted by William May on 09/02/2021 16:57:03:

Oh, GOODY! Stirring the pot!

I had hoped there will be a lot of comments on this!!

Do grow up

Nobody is stirring anything !!

Bill

Adrian R215/04/2021 18:55:51
93 forum posts
8 photos

The "Petrolea" mentioned earlier in this thread is back at SRS and on sale for £2650:

https://www.stationroadsteam.com/3-12-inch-gauge-ger-t19-4-4-0-stock-code-7987/

For the doubters, it works, and there is even a linked video of it in steam.

William May15/04/2021 19:30:42
9 forum posts

Well, that is evidence that someone went through the design and straightened it all out. Too bad they didn't publish the corrections needed to make it a practical operating locomotive.

I am working on a drawing correction for LBSC's Jenny Lind right now. There are several needed, one dealing with the frame and cylinder mount, and another with the brake system on the tender. I will submit them here for posting, and also on the Model Engine Machinist Website in the U.S.

69 years since these were published, and they have not apparently been corrected in any way.

Pathetic, to put it mildly. . .

.

John Olsen16/04/2021 08:01:16
1160 forum posts
92 photos
1 articles

Well, it is not as simple as all that. Back in the day, a guy who built something and found errors would have had to draw or write them up, and post them to some suitable place, either the drawing supplier or the magazine. Then the magazine might publish something in the letters column, or as an article if there was enough to justify one. A drawing supplier would have to arrange a correction sheet to be added to all the existing sets, or maybe arrange a new print run with the changes, all this assuming that they agree that the changes are needed and are themselves correct. Not an easy process.

We have it a lot better now, since we have forums like this to consult, and online indexes for Model engineer at least, and possibly for other magazines. It would pay to do a search through the magazine indexes for the name Petrolea, and see if any correspondence has appeared over the years. If it has, someone will have the relevant issues and will be able to scan the information. I have all the Model engineers since about 1944, and some clubs will have complete sets from 1899.

The other possibility, of recreating the design in 3D CAD, should not be dismissed too readily either. It is not as hard as you might think, and you don't need to know all about standards for drawings. I think you can still get access to Fusion for free as an amateur. It is a really good way of seeing what parts are going to foul, much cheaper than cutting metal.

John

William May16/04/2021 17:18:19
9 forum posts

I suppose that is what I will have to do. But it will have to wait until after I finish my Ayesha II project. I have searched quite a bit over the last 2 years, and only found a few entries for Petrolea. I understand that one individual had quite a site dealing with drawing errors, but I understand it is long gone.

Your suggestion about using "Fusion" and just doing it myself is an excellent one, and what I will probably eventually do.

I am glad I started with "Ayesha II" by Tony Weale, as so far I have not found any errors, and everything has gone to print. The set of plans if beautifully done. Also, his articles deal with every significant issue that one might run into. I could not recommend "Ayesha II" more highly, both as a historical project, and as a first project for a beginner.

My main issue is with the suppliers. Over the years, they certainly should have had time to make corrections as they became known. I understand that LBSC and other modelers were working in a much different time, and that there was a HUGE variation in workshop equipment. I am still reading about treadle lathes, which were widely used when these designs came out. Many people did not even have a micrometer to work with. That situation was very similar to what existed here in the U.S. at the same time. It was the depression, and no one had money to spend freely on locomotive projects. That these intricate projects even existed at the time is mind-boggling to me. Also, EVERYONE makes mistakes, (including myself). The point is the length of time it takes to get them corrected.

I will turn in my first corrections for LBSC's "Jenny Lind" when they are done. I don't want to just complain. I want to see actual change. Also, I want to see the information freely available, so that not everyone who takes on a project has to stumble through the same ancient obstacles.

Thanks for your feedback. I will look into taking a local course on CAD and see how much I can pick up.

duncan webster16/04/2021 20:22:01
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3179 forum posts
55 photos

A bit back there was a chap posting about modelling all lbsc designs in CAD. It might be worth contacting him to see if he has done petrolea, supplying him with a set of drawings might prompt him.

On the issue of suppliers correcting drawings, it's not that easy, and I doubt there is enough profit to make it worthwhile. It is however a shame that the website errata list has disappeared, perhaps SMEE or ME could set up a website like Wikipedia where builders could upload corrections direct.

Copyright of drawings would be interesting. There are several suppliers of lbsc drawings, did they all purchase rights from lbsc or whoever inherited his estate? I know of at least one instance where a supplier sells drawings without the permission of the originator.

Edited By duncan webster on 16/04/2021 20:22:43

William May16/04/2021 22:30:56
9 forum posts

I think the reason several people have copyrights on the same drawing is that they were copyrighted for first publication. I dealt with articles in "Live Steam" magazine, and their copyright was for "First Publication Only" meaning they had the rights to that article, but DID NOT own the plans, except as they were used in the article they paid for. The author still had the copyright on the original drawings.

Also, as you mention, things were more casual in the early days. LBSC may very well have granted permission for more than one entity to carry his plans and drawings. (I know his "Maisie" is carried by both GLR Kennions and Reeves, so they both must have had an agreement with LBSC.) I also know that the "Ayesha" plans were also supplied by Leewood Light Engineering of Australia, (I have a set of them) so apparently they had the rights as well. There could very well be several more individuals or companies with rights to publish LBSC's designs, even though they may not have done anything with them for the last 90 years. .

I can understand why LBSC would do that.

If ONE organization is not going to support your articles and drawings, then get SEVERAL, so you actually generate some income from your designs. LBSC had no other employment than as a writer on small locomotive design and construction, excepting his occasional articles on Christmas presents for little boys that he did every year. Unlike Edgar T. Westbury, who not only wrote articles, but also sold designs to the British government in WWII. (I have been told that all of his "STAR" engines such as Sirius, were designed for the British government and supplied to the resistance forces in Europe during WWII for communications, driving generators for radio systems. All you needed was wood or charcoal to fire your engine, and you could transmit messages, with no gasoline needed.) LBSC had no other outside sources of income other than his writing and designing.

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