By continuing to use this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more
Forum sponsored by:
Forum sponsored by Allendale Jan 24th

Elliot 10m

Shaper

All Topics | Latest Posts

Search for:  in Thread Title in  
Sean Stimpson07/02/2021 18:31:23
26 forum posts
14 photos

Hi all brought an elliot 10m has both pulleys and the belt but is missing the motor I have a spare inverter was looking for people's opinions on a 3/4hp 6pole or a 1hp 6 pole motor thanks

not done it yet07/02/2021 19:08:28
6440 forum posts
20 photos

Why a 6 pole motor? Most motors are 4 pole.

Sean Stimpson07/02/2021 19:11:06
26 forum posts
14 photos

The original motor was a 3/4 hp 6 pole I'm guessing slightly lower speed more torque just wondered if people use a 1 hp rather than 3/4

david sanderson 307/02/2021 19:51:31
13 forum posts
2 photos

Sean don't think it matters 3/4 or 1 hp its the rpm mine has a 930 rpm 3/4 hp motor and i think its the original motor

Sean Stimpson07/02/2021 20:04:32
26 forum posts
14 photos

Never feel like a slight increase in power is needed

noel shelley07/02/2021 20:06:14
862 forum posts
19 photos

That's right mine has a 6 pole 950 rpm or so. You could use a 1425prm single phase if you could reduce the motor pulley size by about 30%. 3/4hp and may well be same frame size as 1hp.

2 pole 2800rpm, 4 pole 1425 rpm, 6 pole 930 rpm. Noel

Clive Foster07/02/2021 20:09:17
2887 forum posts
104 photos

Stick with a 6 pole to use the original pulleys.

Mine runs beautifully on a fairly old Mitsubishi inverter with the original motor. Although a VFD lets you compensate for the motor rpm difference between 6 and 4 pole its a proper PIA keeping whats going on should you vary rpm straight.

Its bad enough just getting your head round the change in cutting speed with stroke.

Usually leaving mine at 50 Hz for book speed is fine but sometimes you have to alter things for a good cut.

If buying new the cost difference between 3/4 hp 6 pole and 1 hp 4 pole motors isn't great. Motor & inverter package will be pretty much the same overall.

Clive

Ady108/02/2021 10:38:38
avatar
4822 forum posts
717 photos

Doesn't need more power

Shapers can smash themselves to bits with the standard issue kit and do amazing tough lobs

A VFD might be useful though

Edited By Ady1 on 08/02/2021 10:39:21

Tony Ray20/02/2021 09:21:17
178 forum posts
43 photos

Hi Sean,

Welcome to the 10M Club. I’m just a few weeks away from finishing my restoration. The 6 pole 3ph on mine was full of oil the and the star point was buried under layers of brittle insulation. As I much prefer 3ph I opted for a new 3/4 HP 6 pole motor and Schneider Altivar VFD. I will not entrust my safety to a Far Eastern VFD. I agree with everyone that you do not need more power, many shapers have bitten the dust with a smash up that breaks the yoke which seems to be the weakest point on the 10M and the Alba 1A that preceded it. Incidentally I have seen a write up where someone fabricated a new one from solid so it is a recoverable situation. Whatever route you go you will probably find the motor foot will be different, I had to fabricate an adaptor plate and even at 6mm thick (ally that’s what I had) there’s still enough adjustment for motor tension. The shaft dia may well also be different, I cut a new keyway with the lathe ( no shaper!) which you will need to do after boring and or sleeving. I got the motor on flea bay a very high quality European branded unit which with a little haggling I got for not much more than the usual stuff that’s available and it has a downloadable CAD model which helped immensely with working out the new mounting arrangements.

If you go down the VFD route and are wondering where to mount it I took inspiration from the write up on Lathes.co.uk where you can see an enclosure mounted at the the rear on the cabinet under the motor. I like this approach as it does not increase the footprint and access is far better that putting it in the base. Incidentally I can’t fathom what the space in the base cabinet is for, it doesn’t appear to have any supporting lugs for a base shelf.

Please do post some pic’s I collect any 10M ones I can find and if you need details about anything you are missing or unsure about please ask. I do intend to do a post on mine when she’s finished.

Tony

Bob n About20/02/2021 10:15:33
59 forum posts
1 photos

My Myford and 10M share an inverter. The Myford used to have a degree of braking applied when stopping. The 10M however didn't appreciate it, the mass of the shaper mechanics meant the braking quickly went over current and faulted the VFD. So watch if you try using brake, or share a VFD. Being able to control the 10M speed is very useful, I am not happy running mine at full speed, as has been said, don't underestimate their power for destruction. If the machine can walk into a wall, don't assume the wall will stop it.

Dave Wootton20/02/2021 10:47:23
208 forum posts
51 photos

Bob

Interesting comment about a wall not stopping a shaper, some years ago a club member bought an Alba shaper. Transported it home with a couple of helpers, put it in his garage up against the wall on a couple of rollers. Without having a look to see how it worked, or ever using a shaper before, plugged it in and switched it on at the wall socket, there followed an almighty crash and the ram knocked three thermalite blocks out of the garage wall also propelling the machine across the workshop. As it was an integral garage it was now possible to see directly into the hall. Turns out the machine had been converted to single phase just by fitting a new motor wired directly to the plug, and the cutch was engaged.....!

Needless to say he took a while to live that one down. According to an eyewitness the accelleration of a shaping machine has to be seen to be believed.

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 20/02/2021 10:49:06

Rik Shaw20/02/2021 12:22:39
avatar
1463 forum posts
396 photos

Hello Shaun - I restored my Alba 1A a few years ago but it had, and still has, a 4 pole domestic mains voltage motor giving approx 1425 rpm . Since the restore I realise that although it is just about usable for some jobs it is - for me - to fast for something like keyway slotting in a gear say.

I did make a lot of enquiries at the time re. a replacement 6 pole motor but was told that I would be wasting my time looking for something no longer made. I even tried for a U/S unit with the intention of getting it repaired/rewired but nothing was available.

These days the poor thing is boxed in with so much new kit that it is a PITA to clear enough space around it to do a job. Hope you get yours sorted OK soon.

Rik

noel shelley20/02/2021 12:48:38
862 forum posts
19 photos

Hi Rik, would it not have been possible to reduce the motor pulley size by 33% to drop the machine speed. Or have I missed something ? Noel.

Tony Ray20/02/2021 15:26:36
178 forum posts
43 photos

Noel, That would work however without checking I would say that a 33% increase in the larger pulley dia. might be too, large for the pulley cover. Of course if a VFD is used some speed reduction could be used to reduce the dia. required.

Tony

Rik Shaw20/02/2021 16:08:39
avatar
1463 forum posts
396 photos

Hello Noel. I did look at the possibility of replacing the present pulley with a smaller one five or six years ago. I did not take any notes so memory will have to serve. Apart from that a bench loaded with approx 1/4 ton of kit is hard up against the belt side of the shaper at the mo preventing me from getting another look inside and providing you with pulley/belt/shaft dimensions

The existing pulley is just about as small as it could be while still working properly. Reducing the pulley diameter by 30% would mean that the bottom of the V belt would be uncomfortably close to the motor shaft OD. Not a good thing with such a chunky drive belt and the increased risk of belt slip. So I am quite sure that I would have looked at this possible solution years ago and dismissed it.

Rik

Clive Foster20/02/2021 16:24:44
2887 forum posts
104 photos

I'm inclined to agree with Tony that changing pulleys isn't really practical.

These days 6 pole motors seem to be much more readily available and much cheaper than they used to be. Possibly due to the increase in VFD use. Using a 6 pole motor instead of a 4 pole one when changing to VFD drive significantly lowers the minimum speed before you start running into torque drop off issues.

I'd guess that with a modern VFD something in the region of 450 to 2000 rpm can be got from a 6 pole 950 rpm motor without undue worry about low speed torque loss or over speeding. In many cases far more useful than the 700 to 3000 ish range from a 4 pole 1440 rpm motor without compensating alterations to the drive train.

If lower speed torque loss with 1440 rpm motor is an issue you'd need to go up to a bigger motor, which may not fit, and a bigger VFD. When I've done the sums for decent but affordable brands of motor and VFD a 6 pole motor and smaller VFD seems to come out a little cheaper than the larger 4 pole motor with matching, larger VFD. objectively pretty much a wash really though.

Clive

Tony Ray21/02/2021 09:47:29
178 forum posts
43 photos

Thanks for this kind words Clive and for not pointing out I went the wrong way on the pulley sizing! Of course I see now making the drive pulleys 33% bigger would make the speed issue worse! My drive pulley had to be quite large so my thoughts were in that direction. I can certainly say having been there that having to mount a modern motor, fabricate a new pulley to fit its 25mm shaft and calculate the optimum dia to get as close to the original stokes per min was enough without the added complication of using a 4 pole motor. One thing I will mention that might be of use to others is that when faced with pulley diameter restrictions going to poly vee belting does allow a wider range of solutions but I’ll save that story for my Elliot write up.

George Jervis21/02/2021 10:24:01
95 forum posts
43 photos

Hi,

I have the Alba a1 shaper, I found the motor that came with it was a single shape 3/4hp 1425 rpm with what looked like the original pulley, the shaper was running way to fast so I got around the problem by putting a 2 1/4" pulley on, now may shaper runs almost to the rpm stated on the plaque

George

Sean Stimpson22/02/2021 16:42:07
26 forum posts
14 photos

I went with 6 pole 1hp as the vfd when lowering the frequency the power is still there I bored the orginal pulley and cut the keyway to make the motor up and running seems to work beautifully thanks for all the help

Chris Crew22/02/2021 22:08:12
avatar
153 forum posts

I must fully agree with those people commenting on the awesome power of the 10M. I have no idea what motor or speed is on mine, simply because I have never bothered to look, except that it is single-phase and looks as if it is the original supplied with the machine although I have no way of knowing. I use it mainly for flatting castings as a single point tool is no issue to sharpen and if it's round-nosed you can use the traverse in both directions. Even though there is a plate giving ram speeds I find it is really just a matter of judgement and guestimation as to ram travel and speed. The only real inconvenience I find is the awkward aligning of the ram crank to alter the distance of travel. I have been meaning to make a handle for the clutch pulley to alleviate having to pull it round by hand to facilitate ram adjustment but I just haven't got round to it yet. Perhaps I might now check out exactly what motor is fitted to it.

All Topics | Latest Posts

Please login to post a reply.

Magazine Locator

Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!

Find Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop

Latest Forum Posts
Support Our Partners
cowells
rapid Direct
walker midge
emcomachinetools
Warco
Eccentric July 5 2018
JD Metals
Eccentric Engineering
Subscription Offer

Latest "For Sale" Ads
Latest "Wanted" Ads
Get In Touch!

Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?

You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.

Click THIS LINK for full contact details.

For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.

Digital Back Issues

Social Media online

'Like' us on Facebook
Follow us on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter
 Twitter Logo

Pin us on Pinterest