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Jouke van der Veen26/11/2020 13:02:04
69 forum posts
8 photos

Andrew,

I live in Almelo, not far from Enschede.

In Enschede you had “Technische Hogeschool Twente”. Delft and Eindhoven had also Technische Hogescholen. They are now “Technische Universiteit” and the one in Enschede is named “Technical University Twente”.

I assume, talking about radar, that you had connections with Thales in Hengelo building radar systems etc?

I am an ingenieur from RUG (Groningen University) and worked for a PhD at TUD (Delft Technical University) at that time still “Technische Hogeschool Delft”. Whats in the name.

JA26/11/2020 13:13:10
1055 forum posts
54 photos
Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes.

You do not need a degree to become a member of one of the engineering institutions. They know that there are a lot of good people working in engineering without degrees who are worthy of becoming chartered engineers. Therefore there are various routes to CEng that ignore degrees etc.

The company I worked had no interest in the institutions so none of us became CEngs. One day a major customer asked "How many CEngs do you employ?" Suddenly we were all encouraged to join an institution and become CEngs with the costs being met by the company. A colleague with only an HNC joined the IMechE after his work was thoughly reviewed. He went on to become a follow of the institution.

I was told, as an apprentice, that "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Quite a few engineers I worked with, without being sexist, would have been better off in institutes.

JA

Jouke van der Veen26/11/2020 13:39:58
69 forum posts
8 photos

JA,

in our company happened the same.

Early nineties we had a merge and became more international and we started to work in aerospace as well.

The Technical Director said that our qualifications should be more clear.

Most of us became “Eur Ing”, based on both education and experience. I think it was controlled by the international organisation FEANI. Our company paid for it. I think it is now CEng. But in the post address on paperwork send to me there is still always Eur Ing behind my name .

Clive Hartland26/11/2020 14:55:40
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2630 forum posts
40 photos

A tale, and engineer came to me to use my lathe, OK, lots of cursing and swearing so I looked over his shoulder to see the lathe going in reverse! Now he was a qualified engineer with some title or other whereas i was a Technician.

Every time he hit a buffer he would come to me to fix and sort, so was I better than him? but without the title?

Now he was not the only one who was like that but was paid good money for it.

I understand that some CNC workers can programme machine code to make parts on the machines but cannot do bench work and have no knowledge of materiels or general workshop procedure.

SillyOldDuffer26/11/2020 15:37:38
Moderator
6681 forum posts
1501 photos
Posted by JA on 26/11/2020 13:13:10:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

...

...

I was told, as an apprentice, that "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Quite a few engineers I worked with, without being sexist, would have been better off in institutes.

JA

Unlike Engineers who might turn out to be useful one day, Apprentices are undoubtedly the lowest form of life on the planet. Their purpose is to be terrified, teased, misled, exploited and abused. Otherwise they are a useless excrescence.

I suspect the young JA was being practised on when told "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Or maybe his interlocutor was innocently parroting what he'd been told whilst wet behind the ears.

Mechanics Institutes were once widespread throughout the UK, and did much to educate and amuse our technically minded forefathers. I've also heard talk of some sort of Institute of Technology in Massachusetts, but I expect it's an exaggeration - you know what Americans are like!

Unlike Engineers (who are too often the spawn of Apprenticeships, see above), UK Institutes have a protected status - using the title without permission is a criminal offence. Curiously, most British Institutes don't mention they are Institutes. The Rutherford Appleton Laboratory is an Institute, as is the British Antarctic Survey, and the National Physical Laboratory. It means they meet high standards.

The Women's Institute is an exception. Wouldn't surprise me if the WI were criminals - look at their aggressively sexist recruitment policy, and my Ex is a member - but apart from them Institutes are respectable.

devil

Dave

mechman4826/11/2020 16:02:44
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2823 forum posts
438 photos

Ref back to my previous post; Also during my career I was registered as Technical member with Institute of Occupational Safety & Health ( I.O.S.H. & entitled to use tech.IOSH after my name ) I s'pose that made me a Health & Safety Engineer.. thinking

George.

Robert Atkinson 226/11/2020 21:10:25
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883 forum posts
17 photos
Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 08:45:10:

Robert said

"Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution. "

Firstly my name is Kyte not Kyle and what I said is correct. All the individual has to do is be a member of the said institute. It's the institutes responsibility to maintain their licence. as I said, full membership allows the use of MIEE (or whatever) and CEng. I also stated that I qualified for membership of the IEE through the HND CEI Part 2 route, the CEI being the council of the engineering institutes body which is the UK-SPEC standard Robert was talking about.

I don't mind you making additional comments but don't say I'm wrong when you then go on to say the same thing thankyou.

regards Martin

@Martin Kyte

Sorry for gettng your name wrong, Not sure if I misread it or mistyped.

What you are saying is not correct. While the requiremenent for full membership may similar to to that for professional registration as a Chartered Engineer, being a full member of the IEE (as was, they ceased to be that in 2006), IET, RAeS etc does not give you chartered status. It does not even automatically give Tech Eng or I Eng. status. If only it was so easy.

IET (IEE merged with IIT to form IET) Full membership requirements are here:
https://www.theiet.org/membership/become-a-member/miet-and-tmiet-membership/criteria-for-iet-membership-miet/

You just need a degree with no experience to become a MIET. No competence or commitment required. If you don't have qulifications you can still join with experience and a "supporter".

CEng requirements are here:
www.theiet.org/career/professional-registration/chartered-engineer/

I don't know about the IET but most RAeS members are not Chartered Engneers or even Incorporated Engineers.

Robert G8RPI .

Robert Atkinson 226/11/2020 21:28:14
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883 forum posts
17 photos
Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes.

I was a Licenced Aircrbaft Maintence Engineer without a degree or any membership. Awarded by the Civil Aviation Authority and in those days when we had our own regulations only a LAE could sign a certificate of release to service for an aircraft. It needed age, training, experience and several exams, oral, written and multi-choice. Not multi-guess, pass mark was 70% and if you got a question wrong it was minus 0.5% so minimum score was -50%. This is part of the culture, if you don't know, don't guess because lives are at stake.

Robert G8RPI.

Jon Lawes26/11/2020 21:31:41
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443 forum posts

I was MRAeS for a few years, just needed some evidence that I'd been involved in flight testing. At the time I was managing the Accident Data Recorder replay department and my manager thought it would be a good thing to add to my resume.

Henry Artist27/11/2020 05:00:11
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120 forum posts
46 photos

A word that has fallen somewhat from popular use in recent years is "artisan" and when it does get mentioned it is usually in the context of rural or pastoral handicrafts.

However, an artisan is a skilled craft worker who makes or creates material objects partly or entirely by hand.

For the purpose of this discussion an artisan could be, for example, a blacksmith, watchmaker, jeweller, locksmith, gunsmith, stonemason, or even a Model Engineer.

Clive Hartland27/11/2020 07:54:47
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2630 forum posts
40 photos

Henry, indeed, a hands on engineer whichever trade/following taken. The quiet man who will take the item and re-furbish it or repair and return and in many cases better than new.

It takes many years to reach that Artisan status and I find they are not just an engineer but have deeper intersts in many things and through that experience gain knowledge etc.

Circlip27/11/2020 08:17:23
1218 forum posts

My mantra always was, "Call me what you want, just pay me my worth and this on a sliding upward scale when you recognise my value"

Too many have been paid on the strength of paper qualifications. In the past, had to teach too many Chief Draftsmen, Production Ingineers and Works "Managers" how many beans make five.

Regards Ian

not done it yet27/11/2020 09:29:46
5382 forum posts
20 photos

Even 53 years ago, job ‘status’ and remuneration began with qualifications at my first place of work.

I started working life as a ‘Scientific Assistant’, and ‘Experimental Officer’ was the next rank up the scale, IIRC.

I started on the bottom rung but was selected, from the intake, to work for the site senior chemist. After eventually shifting across to quality control I soon found myself repeating analyses ‘botched’ by experimental officers getting paid at least half as much again as I was. While it boosted my ego, it didn’t improve the state of my pocket/wallet.

When I handed in my notice, after a little over two years, I was summoned for interview by just about every level of management - including the top dog - to change my mind. Being young, I stuck with my decision and left. To this day I’m not sure I made the right decision back in 1969...BSc, LRIC, HNC ... none of which have particularly been of use in my years of employment.

At one juncture, I was classed as a Commissioning Engineer but was the chemist, among the group of five.

That lot means I don’t call myself an Engineer. I just did what I did, and now do what I do.

I know a Squadron Leader who is now an artist. Not a great deal of connection between flying planes and painting pictures - apart from many of his pics are of planes... I also like it that Doctors drop that tag and become plain ’Mr’ when they become consultants. It’s only a name and doesn’t necessarily mean any more than indicating a level of learning.

Kiwi Bloke27/11/2020 10:12:28
503 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 27/11/2020 09:29:46:

...

I also like it that Doctors drop that tag and become plain ’Mr’ when they become consultants. It’s only a name and doesn’t necessarily mean any more than indicating a level of learning.

...

In fact, the title 'Doctor', applied to the medical profession, is only a courtesy title, unless a doctorate, eg PhD, has been obtained. Medical consultants, of all specialties except surgical specialties, retain the courtesy title 'Doctor', but surgeons revert to their barber-surgeon roots as 'Mr' - or 'Miss' - when fully surgically qualified, but before occupying a post as a consultant.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 27/11/2020 10:13:23

Graham Stoppani27/11/2020 10:20:09
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90 forum posts
13 photos

I am not an an Engineer in an sense of the word (even though I have a couple of computing degrees). However, I do like making and fixing things. From hence forth I shall refer to myself an artificer.

My dad was an artificer in the navy, however, I would like to think of myself as an artificer in the way Terry Pratchett described them. They worked in their various small workshops in the Street of Cunning Artificers and even had a Guild of Artificers - entrance criteria not known. The greatest of them was Leonard of Quirm but I am unfortunately more of a "Bloody Stupid" Johnson.

As an etymological aside, the words engineer and artificer both have their origins in the 14th century. An engineer coming via French from the Latin ingenium skill or talent. An artificer on the other hand is "one who makes by art or skill".

Kiwi Bloke27/11/2020 10:32:38
503 forum posts
1 photos

I have a bit of a reputation locally not as an engineer, etc., but as a Mr Fixit. Trouble is, the Kiwi pronunciation is like 'Fush and Chups'...

john halfpenny27/11/2020 11:34:30
110 forum posts
18 photos

I am an Engineer . C.Eng, F.I.Mech. E. These qualifications took time and much effort to obtain, and have served me well into a comfortable retirement. I know the worth of a good mechanic/fitter/millwright, and give them the status that they deserve - they are craftsmen, typically time served (as in fact I am), and should be better recognised by society. I am an average mechanic and machinist, and slightly better fitter, but these are not skills which an Engineer should be expected to excel in; the skill set is different. Bad and pompous Engineers exist everywhere, as do good machinists with an over inflated ego. Unfortunately, our leaders denigrate all technical skills - witness the current crisis - and prefer PPE from Oxbridge to real life ability. I have often thought the continental system better, where an appropriate level of qualification is recognised in the persons title, instead of plain Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms. There, Engineers are Ing........, and other professions are equally recognised.

Martin Kyte27/11/2020 12:40:01
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2155 forum posts
38 photos

Some sensible comments there from John Halfpenny. The UK has neverreally got to grips with what to do with engineers as professionals or in the wider sphere of engineering as a whole. I feel the essential isue is getting engineers recognise and respected in the same way scientists are, which is more a cultural thing than anything else. It's not a new thing it's been an issue for decades if not centuries. STEM is helping to raise the profile of those who invent, make and discover. Hopefully it's success will not only attract many more new minds into the fields but establish properly the various disciplines in society.

regards Martin

Guy Lamb27/11/2020 12:49:23
104 forum posts

Dear old Fred Dibnah, peace be upon him, called himself a 'Back Street Mechanic' and he did have a university degree or two in that very subject.

Best Guy

JA27/11/2020 13:00:40
1055 forum posts
54 photos
Posted by Guy Lamb on 27/11/2020 12:49:23:

Dear old Fred Dibnah, peace be upon him, called himself a 'Back Street Mechanic' and he did have a university degree or two in that very subject.

Best Guy

I have no idea what relevance Fred Dibnah has to this topic. As far as I am concerned he was a media personality used to keep a lot of the viewing public happy.

If the media was really interested in portraying engineering sensibly they could do the life of Beatrice Shilling (she ticks all the boxes).

JA

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