By continuing to use this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more
Forum sponsored by:
Forum sponsored by Allendale Jan 24th

What am I?

All Topics | Latest Posts

Search for:  in Thread Title in  
old mart25/11/2020 17:50:02
2692 forum posts
176 photos

In the USA, a train driver is an engineer.

I was an electroplater (metal finishing technician), an instrument mechanic, a fitter, but never an engineer. Now I'm an OAP, with a bus pass to prove it. wink

Edited By old mart on 25/11/2020 17:57:18

Edited By old mart on 25/11/2020 17:58:41

br25/11/2020 18:17:40
461 forum posts
3 photos

You are what you think you are

My sister is a fully qualified engineer according to the local council.

Being a down to earth person, she calls herself a Loo Cleaner

They call her a Sanitary Engineer.

br

Sam Stones25/11/2020 18:29:48
avatar
798 forum posts
310 photos

Going alone to start a new business in ’85, I had it ‘declared officially’ from none other than the Australian Taxation Office that I would be listed as a Consulting Engineer.

It was unfortunate however, that it reminded me of a couple of quotes from Victor Kiam’s book …

Going for It!: How to Succeed As an Entrepreneur

His catchphrase was … "I liked the [Remington] shaver so much, I bought the company"

However, I have occasionally pondered another of his quotes that …

consultants are like castrated bulls.

cheeky

ChrisB25/11/2020 18:39:55
576 forum posts
192 photos

I think it depends on which country you come from and tradition of branch of engineering subject.

The OP mentioned he worked in aviation, some countries will call Cat A personnel as technicians, others will call them mechanics. Cat B are called certifying staff or support staff by some countries while others will call them engineers. It's tradition, in Malta where I come from, I'm an aircraft engineer, that's what our company and similar companies in this field refer to us. But a university graduated engineer will not take kindly me calling myself an engineer without having a degree!

Mike Poole25/11/2020 18:56:37
avatar
Moderator
2894 forum posts
68 photos

Our department (control engineering) was on the circuit for our student apprentices, we saw quite a few and they ranged from outstanding to useless, it was rewarding to show some of the know it all ones that they didn’t and change their minds, I wonder if collecting a few A levels and winning a place at university makes some youngsters think they are clever and cleverer than everyone else. The best people I ever worked with were more than willing to share anything they knew if you were interested in learning it and I hope the apprentices who came past me found me to the same. Unfortunately I have also met plenty of the don’t share everything brigade, if I told you all I know today then hopefully I will have learned something new by tomorrow and you won’t know everything until you ask me again, knowledge should be shared freely.

Mike

ChrisH25/11/2020 19:16:36
951 forum posts
30 photos

We had an engineer who had done an engineering degree come down to our ship for a look around. His degree thesis was on boilers. Being shown around the ships engine room by one of the lads they eventually came to this huge lump in the engine room. Whats that the degree chap asked. Thats our boiler came the reply.

The first third engineer I sailed with didn't have any qualifications and probably he never did achieve any - he was not that sort of person, but he was the best practical engineer I ever sailed with.

Chris

Oldiron25/11/2020 19:42:25
729 forum posts
23 photos

The company my wife works for had many people in the office with the credit of "Engineer" on their business cards.

ie sales engineer, technical engineer, process engineer etc. They had many skilled workers in the company but all came up through the ranks and learned the trade by experience, apprenticeships and the odd course here and there apart from the accountant who had a degree. For some reason I do not remember they had a dispute with a customer and had to assign a "proper engineer" to represent them on some aspect of a problem. It turns out that my wife was the only person in the company with a MEng(hons) in mechanical engineering and had the requisite qualifications to be able to satisfy some legal requirement.

They had to get all the cards reprinted except my wife's.

regards

Robert Atkinson 225/11/2020 20:47:38
avatar
904 forum posts
17 photos

Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution.

Howard said “To be a member of a Chartered Engineering Institute, a degree is needed.
Many years ago, someone with a HNC or HND could, by two years further study for further endorsements, become one; but then things changed.”
Again not true. To quote from the EC website “The CEng title is open to anyone who can demonstrate the required professional competences and commitment, as set out in the professional standard”. Nothing in there about qualifications, just competence and commitment.

Unfortunately a degree does not assure a level of competence, just knowledge (or for the real cynic he ability to pass an exam), but it’s not meant to.

One of the problems is that in the UK there are very few tasks that legally can only be carried out by a Professional Engineer (covers CEng and others). This assumes that the law set out the acceptable qualification. In many other countries you need to be a PE to do certain tasks.
A term that is becoming more common is SQEP “Suitably Qualified and Experienced Person” (note qualified does not solely mean academic). The MOD are getting hot on this after a few incidents were seniority was mistaken for competence. This is not just in engineering by the way. Being a PE is a big plus when showing SQEP.

As you may have guessed I consider myself an Engineer. The first formal recognition of this was the issue of an aircraft engineers licence (by the CAA back when authority to sign off an aircraft was vested in the Engineer, not the organisation the way it is now under EASA). Since then I have also attained CEng status and am a Fellow of my professional society. I do not have a degree or even an A level but can sign off a design as meeting CAA, EASA, MOD or FAA (and a few other) requirements. SWMBO has several degrees and a doctorate and earns a lot less than I do.
Fortunately my employer has recognised some time ago the good engineers were becoming poor managers because it was the only perceived means of progressing. They now have dual management and “specialist” tracks with positions for each at all levels up to and including executive / board level. I’m two levels from the top, and still do >95% engineering.

Robert G8RPI.

Martin Connelly26/11/2020 08:38:23
avatar
1664 forum posts
180 photos

The department I worked in usually had an engineering student stay with us for a year for their year in industry before the final year of their course. We had about five or six to interview to pick one. What we did was like a formal job interview then when that was over we went for a drink at the vending machines to relax them and just chat. We always steered the chat towards hobbies and motor vehicles or childhood toys. We always went for someone who liked tearing down and rebuilding motors or played with meccano or similar as they suited the work we were involved with. As previously mentioned dirt under the fingernails was a good thing to have.

One of the oddities that always amused us was that despite the fact that in the latter years they all had mobile phones one of the first hurdles they had was they felt uncomfortable using the phone to contact companies or people they had had no dealings with before.

Martin C

Martin Kyte26/11/2020 08:45:10
avatar
2219 forum posts
38 photos

Robert said

"Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution. "

Firstly my name is Kyte not Kyle and what I said is correct. All the individual has to do is be a member of the said institute. It's the institutes responsibility to maintain their licence. as I said, full membership allows the use of MIEE (or whatever) and CEng. I also stated that I qualified for membership of the IEE through the HND CEI Part 2 route, the CEI being the council of the engineering institutes body which is the UK-SPEC standard Robert was talking about.

I don't mind you making additional comments but don't say I'm wrong when you then go on to say the same thing thankyou.

regards Martin

Andrew Johnston26/11/2020 09:05:18
avatar
5933 forum posts
666 photos

Ho hum, another dispiriting thread leading to the usual disparaging remarks. Since I've been an academic in the past according to the experts on here I must be practically useless. So I'm going to have to come clean; all the pictures in my albums have been photoshopped. embarrassed

Andrew

Kiwi Bloke26/11/2020 09:14:51
508 forum posts
1 photos

There has been reference to healthcare workers. Be glad you're not a gynaecologist - generally referred to as a 'fanny mechanic' [can I say that?] in the trade. I'm not aware of medics being referred to as 'health engineers', but perhaps it's coming. Regarding competence vs qualifications: a SEN nurse I knew cheerfully acknowledged that she was of a lower order than a SRN, but was proud that she knew how to make sure one was comfortable in bed...

David Colwill26/11/2020 09:33:07
726 forum posts
38 photos

Since the word engineer is also a verb that means to skilfully or cleverly arrange for something to happen (in our case for the OP to build a model), I can see no reason why anyone can't use the term if they have actually completed all or part of said model.

Obviously My Time Media are missing out here.

As the owners of the oldest and most respected publication in this field, who better to oversee the start of a Chartered Model Engineers Institution.

A small fee, a quick test and a few photos of last weeks potterings and it's David Colwill CME to you! smile p

Regards.

David.

Martin Kyte26/11/2020 09:47:55
avatar
2219 forum posts
38 photos

There are two basic ways of identifying something. Look at what it does or read the label. The Institutes basically issue labels. Just because something does not have a label that says its a duck doesn't mean it's not a duck.

There is no compulsion to join institutes. If someone has a Doctorate of Mechanical Engineering but is not a member of an institute it they still may be an engineer. Labels are not the most important thing it's what you do that matters. Generally the labels are correct, the institutes are quite good at what they do as are our academic intitutions but there are many good ducks without labels as well as with them.

The encouraging thing at the moment is the STEM movement which is doing sterling work in encouraging young people into Science and Engineering (the doing thereof).

regards Martin

Jouke van der Veen26/11/2020 10:17:06
78 forum posts
8 photos

It is some time ago but ...

In summer 1972 I spent about half a year as an apprenticeship at BHRA in Cranfield ( I worked at the Thames Flood Barrier project). I still remember discussions about titles collected by education, practice, etc.

At that time I was a student at Groningen University and studied Applied Physics with specialization in Materials Science. After passing all examinations you got the title “ingenieur”. That was an exception since this title was normally given by the so called “Technische Hogeschool”, the present Technical University.

At BHRA almost al technical employees appeared to be engineers. In the beginning this was a little bit confusing to me but it was explained to me. One of the bosses also told me, as I remember me well, that when you passed a technical or applied examination at Cambridge University then you got the title MSc but when you passed equivalent examinations at Oxford University then it was the title MA.

The title of ir (ingenieur), do not confuse it with ing (also ingenieur which needs some explanation), is still used in The Netherlands but official titels given by (Technical) Universities are now BSc and MSc.

Andrew Johnston26/11/2020 10:56:57
avatar
5933 forum posts
666 photos
Posted by Jouke van der Veen on 26/11/2020 10:17:06:

One of the bosses also told me, as I remember me well, that when you passed a technical or applied examination at Cambridge University then you got the title MSc but when you passed equivalent examinations at Oxford University then it was the title MA.

I can't speak for Oxford as I didn't go there, but I'm not sure your boss was correct about Cambridge. At undergraduate level Cambridge is unusual in that all undergraduate degrees lead to a BA, irrespective of subject. An MA at Cambridge isn't issued on the basis of exams, it's awarded as a matter of course to those with a BA after meeting certain administrative requirements. There were M.Phil degrees awarded by study and research. When I was there (1980s) postgraduates normally started on a Ph.D. and if one didn't make the grade at the end of year one you were given an M.Phil and asked to leave. It seems to be radically different now. There are many taught courses at Masters level and it is mandatory to have done some of these courses before commencing a Ph.D. I'm not convinced that's a good move. When I started I'd never heard of pulse compression radar, but at least it meant I began my research without any preconceived ideas.

I worked for a while in Enschede; I remember passing the Technische Hogeschool when walking to and from the railway station and my preferred hotel. I assume that was different from the University of Twente (?) which was over the road from the factory where I was working.

Andrew

Hopper26/11/2020 11:03:58
avatar
5207 forum posts
115 photos
Posted by Martin Connelly on 26/11/2020 08:38:23:

...

One of the oddities that always amused us was that despite the fact that in the latter years they all had mobile phones one of the first hurdles they had was they felt uncomfortable using the phone to contact companies or people they had had no dealings with before.

Martin C

That's 'cos it required people skills and they were engineers. laugh

Martin Kyte26/11/2020 11:17:55
avatar
2219 forum posts
38 photos

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Hopper26/11/2020 11:38:38
avatar
5207 forum posts
115 photos
Posted by Jon Lawes on 24/11/2020 22:28:17:

I've worked in engineering all my life, primarily aircraft. I've been a model engineer for a few years, but I confess I have no qualifications other than an MoD apprenticeship.

When discussing hobbies with a colleague I said I was a model engineer. He then pointedly told me that I wasn't any sort of engineer as to be called an engineer I would have had to go to university, or be chartered in some way.

All my working life I thought I was an engineer (it was in my job title a few times), but it turns out I was misled.

So what am I?

Edited By Jon Lawes on 24/11/2020 22:28:42

I don't know about the UK system but here in Australia to work unsupervised on the tools on aircraft you have to get certification as a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer or LAME. So that would make you a licensed engineer. (We just call them Lameys.)

I got an Engineers License when I worked in the USA, running large steam boilers and associated plant. Still have the piece of paper to prove I am a Licensed Engineer, First Class. (Around here its just called a boiler attendant and engine driver.)

As far as general goes, I think once you have built a working model engine and run it, you can call yourself a Model Engineer.

After all, if a charioteer is an expert on the chariot, and a musketeer is an expert on muskets, an engineer must be an expert on engines (in the original sense of machinery in general).

Mick B126/11/2020 11:40:09
1839 forum posts
92 photos
Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes. Perhaps an engineer is defined by having brought a tangible thing into being using their own skills, that wasn't there before.

Qualifications and standards are just human constructs to try to benchmark an essentially chaotic world, like a species is simply a human classification of a snapshot in the development of life.

All Topics | Latest Posts

Please login to post a reply.

Magazine Locator

Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!

Find Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop

Latest Forum Posts
Support Our Partners
JD Metals
emcomachinetools
ChesterUK
Eccentric July 5 2018
cowells
Warco
Eccentric Engineering
Subscription Offer

Latest "For Sale" Ads
Latest "Wanted" Ads
Get In Touch!

Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?

You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.

Click THIS LINK for full contact details.

For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.

Digital Back Issues

Social Media online

'Like' us on Facebook
Follow us on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter
 Twitter Logo

Pin us on Pinterest