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Electric vehicles

Are they joking

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SillyOldDuffer22/11/2020 18:19:09
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Posted by Steve Skelton 1 on 22/11/2020 17:07:10:

... industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network ...

Town Gas, which I remember all too well, gosh I must be old, was mostly Hydrogen, Carbon Monoxide, and Methane. So much Hydrogen in the mix, it was lighter than air. A friend and I made a kind of Zeppelin out of plastic bags and inflated it with gas in my bedroom, at which point we discovered it at 8' by 4' it was too big to go out the window.

My father arrived looking for the smelly leak. I don't think I ever saw him more angry. Looking back I suppose he had a point! A bedroom full of poisonous explosive gas was a bit dangerous.

Dave

Bazyle22/11/2020 18:59:07
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I guess a lot of us remember the switch-over to North Sea gas. One of the problems of switching back to 'town gas' equivalent is that hydrogen is a small molecule that will find a lot of leaks that were ignored because the large methane molecule can't get through.

Pre WWI my great uncle contracted with his mother in their then rural home to supply her kitchen with gas. Went ok for a few months then the shed exploded. He worked with semi-rigid airships during the war so I gues the fascination with gas continued for a while.

ChrisH22/11/2020 19:53:30
923 forum posts
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A letter in todays Sunday Telegraph. A punter writes he bought a 3 year old Nissan Leaf in 2015. Now it has a range of just 40 miles, down from 70 in the time he has owned it (seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me).

Last year he got a quote from the Portsmouth dealer for a new battery at £7500. He declined and regretted it now, as this year the Gateshead dealer said Nissan no longer exchange batteries and a new one would cost £19000; the dealer in Swindon quoted £22500.

If that is par for the course then second hand electric cars are way out of my league; who in their right mind would pay that much for a battery for an 8 year old car? As the writer says - at that cost how many Nissan Leafs will be prematurely scrapped?

Another part of the equation that has not been thought out.

And an article in yesterdays Daily Mail highlights that Congolese miners as young as 11 are risking their lives (it says) for the cobalt required for the digital electric world for just £1.50 a day, which does not make me feel good of the way new technology is going.

Chris

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 20:13:14
593 forum posts
18 photos
Posted by Steve Skelton 1 on 22/11/2020 17:07:10:

Some were mentioning that gas boilers and gas networks are due to be ripped out. This is probably a premature statement as the industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network with a long term potential switch-over to a non-carbon based gas system.

The government just hasn't woken up to this yet!!

See https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/hydrogen-can-be-distributed-in-britains-gas-networks-new-study-finds/

and

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/worcester-boschs-hydrogen-boiler-prototype-enters-first-field-trial

Steve

Steve,

The govt have woken up to this, I attended a virtual hydrogen conference last week just before Boris made his green speech (which didn't get much media coverage!) and hydrogen was number two on the list. There is a project seeking a town to be converted to hydrogen in the gas network very soon. As someone else said, nice idea but I think the fire service may become busier again! I wonder what flavour they will make it so people are aware of leaks. The only saving grace is the band where hydrogen is actually explosive is quite narrow, still burns though!

Paul.

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 20:15:43
593 forum posts
18 photos

pgk,

Thanks for the info on chargers, where people have electric heating, cooking etc I would guess 16a will be about the limit of spare capacity on the domestic fuse!

Paul.

V8Eng22/11/2020 20:20:08
1510 forum posts
30 photos

Browsing another forum I was reading about the idea of equipping lampposts with EV charging points.

That got me thinking about some local roads with victorian terrace houses (now called cottages), the roads are fully parked on both sides because the cottages do not have anywhere else to park and most have more than one car

Counting the number number of lamp posts I reckon it works out at roughly one post to every nine houses, many issues to be overcome in places like that over the next few years!

Edited By V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:21:56

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 20:29:31
593 forum posts
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Posted by V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:20:08:

Browsing another forum I was reading about the idea of equipping lampposts with EV charging points.

That got me thinking about some local roads with victorian terrace houses (now called cottages), the roads are fully parked on both sides because the cottages do not have anywhere else to park and most have more than one car

Counting the number number of lamp posts I reckon it works out at roughly one post to every nine houses, many issues to be overcome in places like that over the next few years!

Edited By V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:21:56

Exactly like where I live. Such is the commitment and degree of forward planning that the County Council are currently for the first time in 30 years breaking out the pavements and kerb stones and renewing them - shame they didn't take to opportunity to collaborate with the power and interweb companies to at least lay cables for fibre to house and kerb side chargers! It won't be 10 years till they have to dig em up again if the 2030 plan comes to pass!

Paul.

pgk pgk22/11/2020 20:36:39
2033 forum posts
290 photos
Posted by Paul Kemp on 22/11/2020 20:15:43:

pgk,

Thanks for the info on chargers, where people have electric heating, cooking etc I would guess 16a will be about the limit of spare capacity on the domestic fuse!

Paul.

Lots of factors at play - some houses still on shared supplies or cannot get their main fuse upgraded and are stuck on 60A incoming. But if you have 30A spare for cooking then it's no big deal to turn off the car's charging while you cook - you just have to be aware and remember. I can do stuff like that via an app through the domestic wifi (no cell signal here). equally the car's onboard charger is supposed to monitor current ripples and reduce draw when anything suspect is going on

ChrisH

Battery life is a concern. The leaf you example was built 2012 - a long time ago in terms of EVs. Nevertheless there are still EV's being sold with only 5yr battery warranties and that's too short. Mine has an 8 yr warranty - if storage drops below 80% (I think) but that doesn't mean they throw in a brand new one... it'd be a recycled jobbie that exceeds the 80% and hobbles over the warranty time....

There's a lot wrong with not just cobalt mining - slavery by proxy applies just as much to sweat shops sewing clothes or trainers or even coffee picking in Nicaragua. All the claimed good intentions of factory inspections are close to a joke - they nearly always give notice and there's a temporary clean-up whie inspection happens.

I mentioned above that Tesla have developed a cobalt free Li-ion cell but note that few get excited about the cobalt in their mobile phone or the other precious metals in there. It's not currently fashionable to diss the mobile phone whereas EV's are fair game (OK they have bigger batteries but millions of phones dumped every year even though they can be recycled)

pgk

duncan webster22/11/2020 20:43:02
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Posted by Bazyle on 22/11/2020 18:59:07:

I guess a lot of us remember the switch-over to North Sea gas. One of the problems of switching back to 'town gas' equivalent is that hydrogen is a small molecule that will find a lot of leaks that were ignored because the large methane molecule can't get through.

Pre WWI my great uncle contracted with his mother in their then rural home to supply her kitchen with gas. Went ok for a few months then the shed exploded. He worked with semi-rigid airships during the war so I gues the fascination with gas continued for a while.

Round where I live they can't even keep the methane in the gas mains, when out walking the dog I regularly smell gas. I reckon they find it cheaper to let it leak than to fix it. When it gets really bad I ring them up, fair enough they are usually out within a couple of hours, but they don't seem to go looking for leaks. Latest one is only a few feet from the last one I reported, The pipe is probably on its last legs all the way along that road.

hydrogen deflagration limit is 4% to 75% concentration, detonation is 18.3% to 59%. I had a fair bit to do with hydrogen issues at work, the good thing is it is so bouyant that it disperses very quickly in the open air, downside is the energy to ignite it is quite low.

martin perman22/11/2020 21:23:22
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1923 forum posts
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Several years ago I had some tree's down at the front of the house and the drive rebuilt, the builder had a mini digger on site to pull out the tree roots, while he was clearing the ground around the tree the digger driver spotted a yellow pipe, my gas supply, he stopped and called the builder to come and spot for him and whilst he waited he took the digger 20 feet further away and put the bucket in the ground and came up with a now busted gas pipe, I went indoors and turned the electric off and got my wife outside and phoned the gasboard and within an hour had the advanced guard who cleared the houses either side and checked our lofts, we all stood waiting the repair team to turn up when the village gossip came out of her house and walking towards us light a cigarette, the gas man shouted to her to put it out with no response so he ran towards her screaming all sorts of expletives until she took the hint. The repair team turned up and I asked where do you turn the supply off and was told there are no off valves and the repair was done live with a form of induction heater coil, the leak cost £800 to repair.

Martin P

Nigel Graham 222/11/2020 21:50:10
921 forum posts
16 photos

Further to V8Eng's point about Victorian terraces - and this also applies to modern housing estates built in 'Nouveau Pastiche' -

Not only do have to park at the roadside, but there is no guarantee you will find space outside your own home or at times in the same street. In mine it's worsened by owners of long-wheelbase vans, such as a couple a few doors from me who run a carrier service from home, and someone, possibly the husband of that couple, regularly parking a Dorset Council road-works lorry nearby.

Even without self-employed or sub-contract traders using big vehicles, many households have more than one car, as well as visiting friends and relatives.

Not far from my home is another mainly-19C road, in which one terrace is up above a high bank whose retaining wall prevents any parking by it.

These politicians and campaigners like Extract of Ebullition and Greater Thunderbox really do need to learn how many of us live before trying to dictate to us all. Yes, as a society we do use far too much fossil fuel and many other materials in a throw-away society for our own and the environment's good, but the alternatives have to be sensible.

Many contributors here have given us facts and figures I did not know, but whose implications are depressing to say the least. I think as the pool of i.c.-engine cars dwindles, vast numbers of people will never be able to own anything more than an electric bicycle; and I regard the campaigner's rosy talk of gigantic fleets of on-demand hire-cars to be just planet-warming waffle.

I foresee future society reverting to most homes being cold in Winter, the next valley may just as well be on the next continent; a trip to the nearest market-town is something of an ordeal or adventure and an exotic holiday is an annual excursion by train - and in that regressive future huge swathes of cultural and social activities we know now, will have become extinct.

I think my generation has had the best of it - though our great-grand-children will probably say, "Yes, and look what a mess you left us while enjoying so many lovely things we can never have."

not done it yet22/11/2020 21:54:24
5428 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by ChrisH on 22/11/2020 19:53:30:

A letter in todays Sunday Telegraph. A punter writes he bought a 3 year old Nissan Leaf in 2015. Now it has a range of just 40 miles, down from 70 in the time he has owned it (seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me).

Last year he got a quote from the Portsmouth dealer for a new battery at £7500. He declined and regretted it now, as this year the Gateshead dealer said Nissan no longer exchange batteries and a new one would cost £19000; the dealer in Swindon quoted £22500.

If that is par for the course then second hand electric cars are way out of my league; who in their right mind would pay that much for a battery for an 8 year old car? As the writer says - at that cost how many Nissan Leafs will be prematurely scrapped?

Another part of the equation that has not been thought out.

And an article in yesterdays Daily Mail highlights that Congolese miners as young as 11 are risking their lives (it says) for the cobalt required for the digital electric world for just £1.50 a day, which does not make me feel good of the way new technology is going.

Chris

You all seem to be flailing away quoting journalistic hype and projecting forward by 15 years!

Look at this video. But do remember that battery repairs/replacement/improvement/prices/etc will change as BEVs become more widespread.

**LINK**

ChrisH22/11/2020 23:30:23
923 forum posts
30 photos

NDIT I was just quoting what I had read today. The first was someones real life experience, the second was similar to articles - as pgk pgk alluded to and to which I agree - which could be equally well be applied to Eastern textiles sweatshops and the like.

I was pointing out what I had read. If you chose to rubbish those facts and dismiss them as being just " journalistic hype" feel free, but don't tell me that you haven't been warned! The grass is not always greener t'other side of the hill.

Have a good day now .........

Chris

Paul Kemp23/11/2020 00:58:28
593 forum posts
18 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 22/11/2020 21:54:24:
Posted by ChrisH on 22/11/2020 19:53:30:

You all seem to be flailing away quoting journalistic hype and projecting forward by 15 years!

Look at this video. But do remember that battery repairs/replacement/improvement/prices/etc will change as BEVs become more widespread.

**LINK**

NDIY,

I am not sure what point you are trying to make? They fitted more batteries, increased the weight and extended the range - I don't think anyone has said this is impossible? Chris's point as I saw it was the cost and that was the thing missing from the video linked - no mention of cost. Also It relies on the original battery still being good, I think when they checked the range before connecting the extender pack they said 70 miles? Therefore the existing battery wasn't in bad shape. Connecting a new pack to a knackered one would not have the same effect.

Paul.

Paul Kemp23/11/2020 01:14:55
593 forum posts
18 photos

Ok just found some prices for Muxan they do the range extender for £5352 plus vat plus fitting and a replacement for the old battery is £8028.45 so to bring the 8 year old car back to full performance with an enhancement in Chris's case would be £13,380.28 plus 20% plus labour (if we take labour as 8 hrs at £30 an hour which is dirt cheap) gives a grand total of £16,344.34.

No idea of the value of an 8 yr old leaf but spending £16k on top of buying one to get a car that does 160 miles between charges sounds an excellent deal to me............................. not!

Paul.

Jon Lawes23/11/2020 01:39:39
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453 forum posts

By putting in a deadline it forces people to think outside the box. Even if they don't achieve it there is a good chance it will accelerate the move towards these things.

Volvo had a deadline of 2020 to get to zero deaths in a Volvo car per year. I don't imagine they hit it, but isn't it fantastic that they tried?

pgk pgk23/11/2020 07:20:26
2033 forum posts
290 photos
Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 22/11/2020 21:50:10:......

Even without self-employed or sub-contract traders using big vehicles, many households have more than one car, as well as visiting friends and relatives....

I foresee future society reverting to most homes being cold in Winter, the next valley may just as well be on the next continent; a trip to the nearest market-town is something of an ordeal or adventure and an exotic holiday is an annual excursion by train - and in that regressive future huge swathes of cultural and social activities we know now, will have become extinct.

Many of us are old enough to remember frost on the inside of single glazed windows, wearing vests and sweaters indoors and mum darning socks and adjusting clothes as they were handed down. Saturday was market day and shopping day. We walked a long way to the bus stop and then again at the other end to get to school. Most households only had one parent working and car ownership was rare. If you did take the car to go see a distant relative then you took a tool-kit along as well. Cities were filled with smog.

My point is that we are a horribly wasteful society. 2+ car families and exotic holidays and disposable clothing, take-aways, canned drinks.. an endless list of disposables. But has any of it made society happier? If anything society is more stressed.

Because folk didn't have access to travel all over the place on a whim they tended to know their neighbours and there was more community spirit rather than living in their isolated bubble of a home and traveling to interact. And let's face it the greater percentage of holidays involve jetting to an all-inclusive and sitting by a pool getting drunk and rutting. Or clubbing and rutting. Most holiday makers see more foreign culture in Tooting than they do in their holiday.

It's become a case of bragging rights over ever more expensive waste and the accumulation of 'stuff''

Is the hobby engineer with his lathe/mill/CNC etc actually happier than the historic hobbyist with a paraffin blowlamp, hacksaw and files? He may be more productive, he may make bits quicker and more accurately but is he happier, does he have a greater sense of accommplishment? I doubt it - it's still just a hobby and a Jason would still be better at it than me.

There's something essentially wrong in a need for both partners to work, to be so frightened they have to drive their kids to school, where everything is centralised on claimed efficiency grounds and where you have to hang on a phone for 45mins to argue errors on a utility bill with a computerised AI.

All that really matters is health and happiness. The former requires technology but the latter is independant of it.

Having raped the planet for resources and contaminated it we do need to take a step back as we did with smog.

I'm no less guilty than the next..perhaps more so since I own a lot of 'stuff'. Nor did I buy my car out of some environmetal consiousness but simply because I wanted to play with the tech. it's made me aware of the possibilities and what's around but I freely concede that EV motoring currently requires some planning, isn't cheap to buy and Tesla's prices (particularly for parts or repairs) and their customer service are disappointing.

Depreciation on new cars has always been steep and it shows up more on more expensive vehicles with finite duration just because modern electronics update so fast... the same applies to a PC or smart-phone - 8 years is ancient tech so throw it away. Remember video recorders? Tape decks?

That doesn't mean we discard advances but it does mean that it's way over time that we made things with a view to their repurposing, recycling and durability. And perhaps time that things were more expensive to make folk think twice - while still keeping an eye on health and 'happiness' Paradoxically choice makes people greedier and fussier - just look what's on offer in a supermarket and how people are manipulated to spend, spend.

I had to buy a new cooker last week since ours is beyond repair. An inbuilt oven unit delivered for £160 with basic functions and a fan - it made me think back to 40,50 years ago when something that sophisticated was uncommon and a huge percentage of a pay-cheque. I doubt this new one will last as long as the one my Mum baked in.

Society isn't fair It can't be. If you give everyone the same irrespective of ability and hard work then there's no need to bother. Not everyone has a brand new fossil car and even if they all have cars not everyone can afford to run them. The same will apply with a switch to greener motoring but it has to be done. Fairness should just be a proper safety net - health care and sustenance and shelter. And we can't even get that right.

Hopefully I trod a fine enough line here to avoid this post being removed.. but I'll understand if it is.

pgk

not done it yet23/11/2020 07:22:06
5428 forum posts
20 photos

I am not sure what point you are trying to make

The point you conveniently missed is that battery refurbishment is possible now. It is in its early stages of development but may well be routine in ten/fifteen years time with cheaper, better batteries and more easily/quickly accomplished. We don’t know any facts around this person’s purchase. Was he someone who did not check out the facts, before rushing out to buy one? Did he actually buy it for “peanuts”? Was he clever or stupid less clever?

Anyone who checks out the Nissan Leaf history should know that it has no active battery temperature control. It is ‘old hat’ and past its sell by date. It was the first real attempt of a BEV. They got the battery management system wrong (and still have not corrected it now). I would not touch a Nissan Leaf with a barge pole - there are so many far better vehicles out there. I see they are now being very heavily discounted. New ones with a much larger battery pack for little over twenty grand.

That taxi in the video was deemed worthwhile to improve for its further use? It also clearly states the kit could be installed by the owner, if they so wished (and had the expertise to do it).

I’m not sure if the maths above is water-tight. Why have a replacement battery and a extra half battery to bring the performance back to normal? However in ten years time, things will change. The ‘million mile battery’ will be here as a norm? Batteries will be cheaper (in relative terms). Batteries will not use expensive metals such as Cobalt. Development continues at a pace. New vehicle costs will fall.

Here is a tip for you all. Buy one that you can normally maintain between 80% and 20% charge levels (only use the top and/or bottom 20% when particularly needed) and charge at a medium rate - neither the ultimately fast nor the ‘granny’ cable.

ICE vehicles have had 120 years to develop and improve their drive trains. Time for a change as we cannot continue to burn fossil fuels as we have since the industrial revolution began. Get real and start to change the environment for your children and their children.

Over 100 years ago treadle lathes were quite common? Who makes one now? How many petrol-driven lathes do you know of? Are Luddites still common? Have you read about the Teslas which have covered half a million miles?

The UK is a relatively small place. Most cars could be electric, even now. There are reasons why they are not, but it will change. Nearly all cars will be electric in about thirty years time. Get used to it, even if it will not directly affect you.

Roger Hart23/11/2020 07:52:51
135 forum posts
30 photos

I think pure electric cars are a development dead end. Hybrids are a not entirely honest alternative but at least represent a development route for changing primary fuels or energy storage technologies. The real problem is the primary fuel and its replenishment.

Electric cars have been in development for almost 200 years. Improved a lot in the last 20 years, but think how much the ICE improved from nothing in 1876 to a workable car in 1886. The snag is that we don't really have the basic physics (chemistry is physics) to make a fast chargeable/big capacity/long life battery.

Even if we did the idea of pushing 350KWh + worth of power down a little cable in three minutes or so is a bit daunting let alone taking a spanner to it. The thought of mending an electric farm tractor in the middle of a wet ploughed field suggests that vehicle mechanics of the future will need to remember the 'no old bold mechanics' dictum. The alternative may be a serious risk of frostbite. What joys.

Progress is the exchange of one inconvenience for another.

pgk pgk23/11/2020 08:39:20
2033 forum posts
290 photos

I'm not sure how much of any modern tech you can mend in the middle of a field any more. It seems these days you start with a laptop, specific software and plug into the ODB. There;s so many cut-outs and servos and self drive nav systems that it's a lottery of luck unless it's simply hammering a bent linkage into submission. If it isnlt something conveniently simple then it's a recovery to base job or at least somewhere with a good pit and some heavy overhead lifting gear.

pgk

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