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Electric vehicles

Are they joking

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pgk pgk22/11/2020 08:30:01
1975 forum posts
288 photos
Posted by John Rutzen on 22/11/2020 08:19:31:

Electric cars aren't the answer, driving a lot less is. Apparently 50 years ago the average mileage was 5000 per year , now it is 25000. Think of all that time wasted sitting in a car. At least most of us haven't done much driving this year.

car mileage

UK average mileage is given as 7.4K 2019 down from 9.2K 2002. Business mileage is roughly double private mileage. If memory serves those that actually had a car circa 70's did about 12K. Lower annula mileage is countered by higher number households with car(s).

pgk

J Hancock22/11/2020 08:31:29
480 forum posts

I see nothing, yet, to suggest the EU is going to impose the same madness upon the Continent.

So, how does that portend for the future of Continental travel in your EV ?

Take your generator, transformer ,plug/socket , extension lead with you ?

Daniel22/11/2020 08:34:05
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330 forum posts
48 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/11/2020 12:53:59:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2020 12:00:28:

Electric cars are superior to petrol in every way apart from one - the battery.

.

.

Scalextric sorted that one out devil

MichaelG.

laughlaughyes

Very good

not done it yet22/11/2020 08:41:05
5148 forum posts
20 photos

Here is a (possibly) useful internet site showing real world ranges, etc of BEVs - but at motorway speeds, which are going to be somewhat different to urban motoring.

**LINK**

They have clearly not included those vehicles which cannot achieve motorway speed of 110kph. The earlier (with smaller battery capacity) nissan leafs don’t seem to rate at motorway speeds.🙂

pgk pgk22/11/2020 09:08:04
1975 forum posts
288 photos
Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 08:31:29:

I see nothing, yet, to suggest the EU is going to impose the same madness upon the Continent.

So, how does that portend for the future of Continental travel in your EV ?

Take your generator, transformer ,plug/socket , extension lead with you ?

Link

It may not be an EU imposed set of rules but plenty of national incentives amongst the richer countries.

Euro charge-points Link

No shortage of charge points albeit fast ones areless common but growing exponentially and there is a set of standards emerging.

Route planner

You can play with this site making selections of trip types, vehicle specific and (if memory serves) make allowances for weather. It's calculations take account of altitude changes too.

pgk

J Hancock22/11/2020 09:38:19
480 forum posts

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

Mike Poole22/11/2020 09:40:33
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Moderator
2814 forum posts
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Of course everyone has a different requirement from their vehicle but I suspect many of us do mostly short journeys with some longer trips for days out or weekends away. 10,000 miles a year is 200miles a week but I doubt that it would be that evenly distributed. Much of the time the car will only need a top up a few times a week. The Tesla’s are an impressive vehicle that will do what most people could ever want, PGK has let us in on what living with a Tesla is like but although it is a very practical vehicle I think it falls into the I want one rather than need one category. Hopefully in the future I am going to have the problem of choosing a replacement vehicle and I am thinking maybe buy a relatively short range vehicle and hire one for long range trips. I can sit back for a few years and see what happens. There may be some fun to be had doing a long distance trip with a short range vehicle, a couple of mates decided to go to a motorcycle rally two up with camping gear on a Honda 50, all credit the the Honda it didn’t let them down.

Mike

Michael Gilligan22/11/2020 09:54:40
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16654 forum posts
725 photos
Posted by Mike Poole on 22/11/2020 09:40:33:

[…]

Hopefully in the future I am going to have the problem of choosing a replacement vehicle and I am thinking maybe buy a relatively short range vehicle and hire one for long range trips. I can sit back for a few years and see what happens. There may be some fun to be had doing a long distance trip with a short range vehicle […]

.

Keep putting pennies in the piggy-bank, Mike ... Morgan might be back in the game one day !!

**LINK**

https://uk.motor1.com/news/405763/morgan-discontinues-electric-three-wheeler/

MichaelG.

John Rutzen22/11/2020 10:02:13
288 forum posts
16 photos

I don't know where the figures came from but I was quoting from a radio programme about increased car mileage per year, Unfortunately I can't remember what the prog was or when! Perhaps it was in the States. The batteries for electric cars do cause a lot of pollution due to the mining for the materials. Perhaps the programme was averaging the mileage over the population in which case the increased car ownership would account for it.

Edited By John Rutzen on 22/11/2020 10:04:18

pgk pgk22/11/2020 10:07:58
1975 forum posts
288 photos

Sorry .. can't restrain myself...

One of the biggest emerging car growth markets is China. And one of the places with greatest pollution. Why we've allowed china to take over all our manufacturing is a diferent argument but with the economic power they have and no need to worry about patent infringements or reverse engineering they are maing great strides.

A top of their range XPeng Motors car (a fusion of Tesla and Lucid Air design styles) comes with 5 radar systems, a full complement of ultrasonics and 14 high def cameras and two internal screens - 15" for general use and 10" for car function displays and a 500mile battery range and all for £38K (in china). Base model is £28K.

Doubtless they'll be on ebay next yearsmiley (buy pays return postage?)

At the other end of the spectrum the Fiat 500e cheapest costs £20K with about 100mile range ona 24KW battery or 200 mile range on the 42KW pack for 200 mile range @ £23.5K. Assuming you can acutally cram yourself into one! But it'd be fine for a city dweller and the 100 mile range will only take 3hrs to recharge on a home 7KW charge point or 6 hrs off a 13amp circuit - so lots of cable reels dangling down the sides of high-rise city blocks....

pgk

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 10:31:48
580 forum posts
18 photos
Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 09:38:19:

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

Apparently the wind turbine towers off the coast have diesel generators within to get them started so there is a brown tinge to green.

Paul.

steamdave22/11/2020 11:13:55
459 forum posts
35 photos

Electric vehicles are all well and good for urban areas, but for rural areas like the west of Ireland are totally impractical. At the present time there are few charging points and those that there are don't always work or are occupied when required by Biddy doing her shopping.

Public transport is non-existent in rural Ireland. I would have to walk 2-1/2 miles to the nearest bus stop. Great in the pouring rain and even better when going home again with the shopping!

It will take a sea-change in attitudes to get Paddy the farmer to change his Toyota Landcruiser for an electric alternative (Is there one?), especially as a few years ago the Irish government persuaded people to go for diesel cars. Diesel fuel is approximately 10c/litre cheaper than petrol. (Locally diesel = 1.15 EU litre).

There are a lot of old cars on the roads here and with combustion engines, they somehow keep on going. What happens to the batteries in electric vehicles when they are beyond their useful life? The cost of a replacement battery presently is uneconomic when put into an older vehicle, and to my knowledge they cannot be recycled.

As for the infrastructure, who is going to pay for the many, many thousands of tonnes of copper and other metals required to install the charging networks? You can bet your life, the cost will be passed on to the consumer in higher electricity charges and taxes. Never mind the pollution, invest in copper mining companies and make your fortune!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

pgk pgk22/11/2020 11:30:41
1975 forum posts
288 photos

Batteries can be recycled and replaced Link

and the newer ones will be cobalt free.

Getting farmers to change their ways is always harder with the smaller farms but I'm sure Paddy knows how best to claim his subsidies and incentives just like Jones the sheep can.

Electric pick-ups are off the drawing board and prototyped already. Even Paddy might be persuaded when he finds he can plug in his 120 & 240 v power-tools in without needing to cart the genny. Cybertruck is quoted as 500 mile range and a power roof over the flatbed and security cameras to stop Mick nicking stuff...

pgk

SillyOldDuffer22/11/2020 12:15:54
Moderator
6469 forum posts
1422 photos
Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 09:38:19:

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

You have to compare all the costs when alternatives are considered.

Open cast is cheaper than deep coal, which involves tunnels, winding, conveyor belts, and lots of people etc. Most UK coal was mined, the deepest shaft being 1400 metres in Lancashire. Geology makes open cast more practical abroad where thick seams are close to the surface. Even so extraction involves stripping £millions of tons of top surface to reach the coal underneath.

Once open to the air open cast coal is stripped with massive machinery before cleaning and sifting. Cheapest way to move it on land is by rail and then by sea. For example, coking coal dug at the Goonyella Riverside Mine in Queensland is transferred about 50km across Australia by narrow gauge railway to a purpose built coaling port at Hay Point. Hay Point is 6000 hectares in size and exports 32 million tons of coal a year. The coal likely goes to China, about 6500km away. In that case, the ore carrier does a round trip of 13000km per cargo, and the coal may be moved again by rail inside China.

So we have a strip mine with heavy machinery, a significant narrow gauge railway with engines and trucks, a large purpose built seaport, and bulk ore carriers moving heavy coal over long distances. All this requiring people, maintenance and replacement of worn-out equipment. And the whole lot is junk when the local coal basin is exhausted.

This compares with an unmanned wind farm transferring electricity by cable almost directly to the customer, most of the way using existing infrastructure. The wind may be unreliable in the short-term, but it never runs out. Yes the wind farm has to be built and maintained, but its substantially cheaper than coal. And cleaner. It's particularly economic in the UK because most of our coal is imported from Columbia, Russia and the USA.

The main problem with green energy is matching demand and production. Coal can be stacked in a yard and burnt when needed: it's easy. Wind and solar are cheap but they deliver at inconvenient times and electricity can't just be shovelled into a heap and used later. The problem is only partly fixed by building wildly scattered wind farms. Although unlikely to be a dead calm off Cornwall and Scapa Flow at the same time, it's possible. The issue isn't the cost of green power, it's making it available when needed. The problem is storage. Many options such as batteries, hydroelectric, steam, molten metals, electrolysis, ammonia, and compressed or liquid air etc. They all work, but none of them are the simple obvious answer, so the future is likely to be a mixture. Interesting times ahead.

Dave

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 12:20:46
580 forum posts
18 photos

pgk,

Interesting comment in that article "(I normally charge at home and work with a 100 amp HPWC)" where I live the main company fuse is 100 amp. What amperage is your home charger?

Also interesting from the fella that left his for a week with 32 miles in the battery, when he returned it had dropped to 12 and now it won't take a full charge. How long can you leave yours to its own devices without being plugged in, without risk? When I was working proper I was out of the country for a month at a time, could I park a Tesla at the airport unplugged for a month and get a 70 mile trip home on my return?

Paul.

Paul Kemp22/11/2020 12:40:21
580 forum posts
18 photos

S.O.D,

The issue of cost of green electricity may not be an issue in the static domestic or industrial setting but it is an issue to use it in a mobile setting like vehicles or boats. The cost of the electricity at the static transfer point can be cheap but the cost of the equipment required to put it on wheels is significant.

Wind farms also are not completely unmanned, all the coastal wind farms have significant maintenance bases with daily deliveries of techs to the turbines. It would be interesting to compare man hours per kWh between a conventional power plant and a wind farm I have no idea what that may be but would agree it's very likely lower for wind but large scale wind is definitely not fit and forget. Probably the least labour intensive post commissioning is solar?

As you rightly say matching generation with demand and the need for storage is the difficult bit and that is where the costs rack up.

Paul.

J Hancock22/11/2020 13:04:14
480 forum posts

Ah well, if it all goes wrong and all the fossile fuel vehicles have been scrapped, there is always the horse.

Unless the Belgians have eaten all those too.

matt22/11/2020 13:27:49
22 forum posts

biggest problem as I see it is lack of infrastructure combined with range/charging times. As a service engineer I regularly do 400+ mile round trips in a single day. So I'd probably need to recharge at some point during day. At moment very few factories I visit have charging points and those that do are invariable occupied by senior managements teslas. So I would be dependent on public charging points and having to wait an hour or two whilst car charges. Either we pass on costs of waiting time to customer or absorb it. Either is going to be damaging to the business.

For electric cars to be a viable alternative we need to see ranges roughly doubling and charging times getting down to 15-20 min region. Plus a massive increase in charging points and generating capacity to support it. Bear in mind that a significant proportion of housing in this country doesn't have off street parking so overnight charging isnt possible.

pgk pgk22/11/2020 14:49:46
1975 forum posts
288 photos
Posted by Paul Kemp on 22/11/2020 12:20:46:

pgk,

Interesting comment in that article "(I normally charge at home and work with a 100 amp HPWC)" where I live the main company fuse is 100 amp. What amperage is your home charger?

Also interesting from the fella that left his for a week with 32 miles in the battery, when he returned it had dropped to 12 and now it won't take a full charge. How long can you leave yours to its own devices without being plugged in, without risk? When I was working proper I was out of the country for a month at a time, could I park a Tesla at the airport unplugged for a month and get a 70 mile trip home on my return?

Paul.

'standard' domstic home charger is 7'ish KW usually on a 32A circuit. Newest Teslas UK (can't speak for the others) can take upto 11KW A/C if chargers happen to be on 3-phase. To be correct the car has the charger on-board and the wall unit is a just a fancy socket/switch and some folk use a so-called granny lead off a 16A/32A commando socket but reasons why that's not recommended.

My house domestic supply is 100A and from that i have a 50A line to sub-board in barn and a 60A line to sub-board in hobby shed but common sense applies as to how much I plug in where and when... not a good idea to stick the immersion, oven, hob, car, welder, washing machine etc on all at the same time and then plug in a kettle and electric fire and a cement mixer...

If the car is left alone then it goes into a sleep mode and if left for longer goes into a very deep sleep.. at that point it uses 1-2 miles of 'range' per day , less than 0.5-1 KWH. However if you leave it running it's sentry mode which goes via the main computer system in there then it draws a constant 300watts and if you keep waking it up remotely to check it or have it paging information to one of the web-based monitoring systems some folk use then it will use up power. Obviously it also depends on the charge you have when you arrive at the airport. If you arrive near full (nearby top-up) then a month asleep should be OK. Certainly 2 weeks would be fine. HOWEVER times are changing and several airport parking services will top the car up for you if pre-arranged - a service that will be more widely available. The car's systems are wise enough to turn all non-essential functions off at 20% remaining (such as sentry mode) so a good chance you'ld still get away with a month at the airport without the car being 'bricked' if you foolishly left everything running - so long as there was somewhere very nearby to get a top-up. But not recommended.

Then again airport parking fees are high enough that it's usually just as cheap/easy to take a taxi there and leave car plugged in at home.

Matt

There will always be difficult cases. The model3 with 75KWh battery and 300+ mile range if you topped it off to 100% before leavng home (set it to 90% overnight and finish the charge while dressing/brekkie so it's not at 100% too long and use shore power to get it toasty warm inside before you set off - all done via a phone app)

200mile each way is 3.5-4hrs+ Most folk need a comfort break. Us older gentlemen need that scarily often these days when peeing on the hard shoulder is frowned on. The less charge remaining the faster it can be topped up. In the case of the model3 on the newest v3 superchargers you can pull 250KW when nearly empty and about 100KW at half full. So 20%-60% charge (a quick 120miles extra) can be done inside your 20 mins. Obviously that depends on location of suitable chargers en route. Equally as you concede more and more businesses are putting chargers in for staff use but they are usually 7KW slow jobbies - around 30miles range per hour on the model3. Heck you can even run a cable reel out and get 2KW or 9 miles range per hour if on-site for a while and desperate enough. It; winter time that knackers the theoretical ranges.

Good news, though, the cyber-truck is due out in a year or so UK (next year US) and should have 500 mile theoretical range and more than enough room for any service gear or if you save your pennies then when the Roadster comes out you'll have 600 miles range , a huge outstanding loan and can burn any supercar off at the lights. And doubtless an eyewatering insurance rate.

Or if not a speed merchant then the Tesla Semi (if you want to drive a tug unit and have HGV) will do 600+ miles unladen or 500 miles with a load and keep your speed down to 60mph max. Stick the trailer on it with a conversion and you'ld be able to live on site.

pgk

Steve Skelton 122/11/2020 17:07:10
89 forum posts
3 photos

Some were mentioning that gas boilers and gas networks are due to be ripped out. This is probably a premature statement as the industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network with a long term potential switch-over to a non-carbon based gas system.

The government just hasn't woken up to this yet!!

See https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/hydrogen-can-be-distributed-in-britains-gas-networks-new-study-finds/

and

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/worcester-boschs-hydrogen-boiler-prototype-enters-first-field-trial

Steve

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