Are they joking
6712 forum posts
Mostly Urban Myth, with a dash of truth. I first heard it at school, when the technology was allegedly perfected by the RAF during WW2 and suppressed as a military secret because it would have saved the Nazis. The secret has since been hidden along with the Ark of the Covenant, flying saucers and death rays.
Dimly remembering Heavy Water is something to do with E=mc² gives the idea a certain credibility, provided you didn't major on science at school. In the real world, no need for sinister disappearances because the nature of the chemical bond is well understood. The amount of energy released by burning Hydrogen and Oxygen is known, and so is the amount of energy needed to break water back into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Reversing can be done chemically, but electrolysis is cleaner.
Burning fossil fuels to make the electricity needed to turn water into Hydrogen and Oxygen isn't cheap, though the method is economic at remote locations (like a rural hospital needing Oxygen in New Guinea), and for the small workshop burners used by Jewellers.
So the technology exists, but it's cheaper at the moment to make bulk Hydrogen from Methane and bulk Oxygen from Air. However in future, electrolysis has a rosy future because it's a way of storing Green Energy. Perhapst the biggest problem with Green Energy is it can't be turned on an off like a tap. Mother nature doesn't deliver solar power at night, and is otherwise uncooperative. She belts out free energy in massive quantities when no-one wants it, and then cuts out at inconvenient moments. Storage is essential, and electrolysis can do that.
Electric car batteries are another way of storing green energy. It makes sense to recharge cars while their owners are asleep because wind power usually provides excess capacity at night. And electricity isn't like petrol in that energy can be taken back by the grid. Millions of electric cars could be used to balance the network.
The idea obviously doesn't make sense when cars are used for long journeys, or have to be ready to go at short notice, but most cars aren't like that: I used to drive 30 miles a day to work, and my maximum weekend journey would be about 100 miles. Longer distances involved hire cars, trains and planes. My car spent about 22 hours a day parked up, more now I'm retired, and it wouldn't matter if the grid used it to balance the load. Otherwise 15000 miles a year is an average 41 miles per day, which is well within electric range. It means most people, most of the time, could go electric without bother. There are many exceptions. Long journeys towing caravans over mountains is one, as is living in Montana. I guess those people won't use the same technology as urban dwellers.
Electric cars aren't direct substitutes for internal combustion. They have new shortcomings and new advantages, For example, if you enjoy acceleration, quite ordinary electric cars will burn off a petrol muscle car. It's because a battery can deliver power direct to a motor on all four wheels faster than a reciprocating engine can clank through the suck, squeeze, bang, blow cycle. Nor does the electric car waste energy in the transmission, cooling and lubrication systems : what's available goes straight to the road. On top of that electric cars are lighter. Seats and bodywork sit on a light flat plate and there's no heavy cylinder block, clutch, gearbox, drive shaft or differential to haul around.
Electric cars are superior to petrol in every way apart from one - the battery.
Interesting times ahead.
|Michael Gilligan||21/11/2020 12:53:59|
17073 forum posts
Scalextric sorted that one out
|Paul Kemp||21/11/2020 14:01:06|
|593 forum posts|
Are you sure electric cars are lighter? Do you have figures to back that up? Certainly the marine projects I have been working on do not show that, yes we can remove 2 high power engines and two generator engines but even ignoring the weight of the batteries the equipment weights are comparable. Motors of the requisite power definitely are not light. We cannot find a motor that is efficient across the RPM range required for either props or water jets so reduction gearboxes are still required. Motors still need complicated cooling arrangements involving glycol cooling circuits and complicated thermostatic valves as do the inverters and transformers. The batteries also require cooling either by water or air, in fact lithium based batteries present a significant hazard in the quantity required and need very careful and precise temperature control and the cooling arrangements present a very significant weight.
There are at least two hybrid vessels to my knowledge that due to the over optomistic claims of equipment suppliers have left the designers with very red faces and resulted in two very expensive white elephants. While there is strong drive from government to push things in this direction this is not backed up with funding to support the disproportionate capital costs. Much of the analysis presented as an argument to suggest through life costs are vastly reduced to off set the high initial capital costs are cleverly and deliberately flawed by ignoring through life battery or fuel cell replacements or other renewal costs.
On the point of potentially supporting the grid by back feeding from my batteries at peak times who pays for the reduction in battery life available to me through the increased cycles?
|Harry Wilkes||21/11/2020 14:23:36|
1025 forum posts
Out of the fat into the fire I watch a youtube clip link
in which Ian Ducan Smith in a LBC interview said the biggest problem with electric car are the batteries as they cannot be fully recycled and a large part of it would have to go to landfill
|duncan webster||21/11/2020 14:25:31|
2962 forum posts
Weight of base model Tesla3 is 1611 kg, base model VW Passat is 1390 kg, but does that include a full tank of fuel? If not add say 180kg and there's not a lot in it.
The only thing putting me off going electric next time is the extra cost, hopefully by the time I'm looking to change that will have levelled out.
I notice a report that BMW is to move all IC engine manufacture to UK. Might be good in the short term, but not long term
|910 forum posts|
top all this non essential commuting, travelling salesmen, FtoF meetings, site working tradesmen travelling every day. Everyone live within cycling, or bus range of work if it needs physical presence
Which presuposes that there is an even distribution of suitably skilled workers who live within walking/cycling distanceof workplaces. And given the woefull lack of training of skilled trades people over the last 30 or more years, that is unlikley to be the case. Fine if you want to work in hospitality or retail (both now under threat) - not so easy for skilled trades. The days of there being large numbers of similar employers within a town or area are long gone - getting "on your bike" to find something suitable or paying a better wage has been the way for a long time now.
I don't enjoy commuting 48 miles each way to work, but have done so for coming up on 15 years because (1) it pays better than I can get locally & (2) I like the chap I work for.. The latter holds more sway than the former, having not liked the more local employer I endured before the move. Most of my colleagues also travel, due to the location of the company & workers with the required skills not being available locally.
The "personal transport" genie has been out of the bottle for so long now that there will be very strong resistance to change. A 1 - 1/2 hour drive to & from work at my convenience at a fuel cost (currently) of around £9 a day, or 2 1/2 hours each way on the bus + train at a current cost of £35 a day - would you volunteer for the latter ?
Fortunately I will be retired before I am priced off the roads using personal transport !
|Steve Skelton 1||21/11/2020 14:55:12|
|92 forum posts|
Duncan, wow I did not know Passats have about a 50 gallon tank - no wonder they go so far on a tankful!!!!
|duncan webster||21/11/2020 14:59:26|
2962 forum posts
DOHHH......got so used to buying fuel in litres
|Michael Gilligan||21/11/2020 15:01:26|
17073 forum posts
Not quite, Duncan
... Here is the link I posted early on 19-Nov
An interesting development: **LINK**
|Paul Kemp||21/11/2020 15:49:57|
|593 forum posts|
One thing that surprised me when I started to become involved with hybrid and electric systems (and I don't profess to have vast electrical or electronic experience, my involvement is more on the nuts and bolts side) is the batteries! There are a whole host of companies in the world "making" batteries. However that "making" consists of connecting and arranging cells in cases with the appropriate connecting and monitoring of the individual cells to ensure a balance in discharge / charge and temperature control of the myriad of individual cells they connect within their "boxes". There are few companies in the world that are actually making the individual cells from which the major "battery manufacturers" can actually purchase the base of their products. The cleverest bit and seemingly where the major advances in "technology" are coming from right now is the way the connection, control and balance is achieved and managed rather than the base cell chemistry. Seemingly the next best step in battery development will come from changes in chemistry of the base cells. There is a new chemistry that has come to market in the past couple of years that leads to a more stable base cell and less heat being generated (thus more efficient as less waste to heat) but currently it is not yet up there in terms of power density or cyclic life.
The comic video of a car with all the door panels and other voids filled with Duracell AA batteries is a lot closer to the truth than many would realise!
IDS in Harry's link makes some good points about hydrogen if it can be generated in a green way then hydrogen has the best potential to be the greenest overall and also at the end point of use more flexible and closest to operation as we know it. The one thing he did say in that interview which is fact but often conveniently ignored is none of this is cheap! Even taking the life cycle of a vessel as 25 years is no help when today's hydrogen prices in terms of kW/kg are more than double that of distillate fuel. As far as I can see the green revolution will widen the gap between the haves and have nots and lifestyle for the masses will return to reliance on public transport rather than personal transport! The current policy is just a way of subtly implementing that by economically removing choice.
1800 forum posts
I bet you have a stiff leg though. Used to have a 600cc Sloper.
|923 forum posts|
Add to my "not thought through" comments.
I have read today - I must admit I knew this fact but had forgotten it - that the government also want to phase out gas boilers for house heating - a figure of was it 24.5million homes heated by gas at present? - and presumably gas for cooking, to be replaced by electricity. That is going to add shed loads of required electrical generation capacity/load to our power generation/distribution system.
If we are to go electric cars in 9 years time, and if we are to add getting rid of gas heating/cooking to the equation, then we need loads more power stations being started to be built NOW, not to mention the upgrading of distribution systems. How long to design and build a power station? Years! You don't need to be a genius to do the maths!
Nowhere have I heard or read of those being even thought about, never mind planned and being built.
Get the candles in! And stock pile bottled gas perhaps!!! Or logs. Or charcoal. Built an all-weather barbie! You may need it all.
All this has NOT been thought through. End of.
Edited By ChrisH on 21/11/2020 21:35:11
|old mart||21/11/2020 21:42:42|
|2497 forum posts|
I'm too old to worry, and would never be able to afford a new vehicle in any case. The sale of second hand cars won't be forbidden after the date.
|not done it yet||21/11/2020 22:54:33|
|5428 forum posts|
I think you will find, on checking, that the government is to halt fitment of gas boilers in new builds (within the next five years?). I’ve not heard or read that any existing gas-supplied dwellings are to have there supply removed.
Unless their house building records are improved, it won’t make that much difference in the next twenty years.🙂
|Nigel Graham 2||22/11/2020 00:08:57|
|921 forum posts|
There was a news report yesterday evening that the ban on gas supplies - not just boilers, as I understand it but may be wrong - in new homes was to have started in 2023 but has been dropped or (more likely) delayed.
Give a bunch of politicians - or all parties - anything the least bit technical and thinking through it is the last thing they do. If there is any silver lining to come from this pandemic it is that governments do need to take notice of specialists.
Who knows, they might even by now have appointed a Chartered Engineer or two to the Board of HS2 - when I looked some while ago it had no engineers at all but did have a "Director of Strategic Partnerships". So that's all right then. Whatever one of those does.
Someone I think from the AA or RAC was commenting on the very high price of electric cars. She agreed but said second-hand ones will become available. Aye - ones with clapped-out batteries costing a fortune to renew and which never had the range of the newer models anyway?
Friends who own an electric car tell me that a journey he needs take for his work fairly regularly, takes two charges each way, whereas its petrol predecessor used less than a tankful for each. If they take a long drive in Winter they need wrap up warmly to avoid using the heater, which on theirs at least (I don't know the make and model) apparently takes its power from the traction-battery.
I wonder if we'll see Re-charge Rage? "The latest can be recharged in quarter of an hour!" say the enthusiasts. That's comforting if you've a 300 mile journey on a cold, wet Winter evening, a journey impracticable or impossible by public transport, and every service-station has six cars ahead of you at each charger. Oh, and then your so-called "smart"--phone fails so you can't pay for the electricity because those who Do Not Think Ahead have failed to compel the manufacturers to fit card-readers, nor come to that, one standard connector for all vehicles.
Nor do they think of those us who live in flats or (as I do) terraced streets built when cars were only just appearing - and in fact so were battery-powered cars, vans and small lorries. Or in some modern housing estates like Middle Farm ("Poundbury" just outside Dorchester, with very many homes in pseudo-18C terraces with real 18C lack of any adjacent parking areas. I think that came from a deliberate Governmental policy to discourage car ownership on the premise that everyone will live within walking distance or a short bus ride of their school, work, surgery, out-of-town supermarket etc., and never go anywhere else.
Obviously we need go to a filling-station anyway with an i.e-engined car, but refilling-time is usually only a matter of minutes so the queues are normally short, the pumps are standard sizes and do not need an expensive portable phone and so-called "app" to use them. (Many pumps have car-readers, too.)
1800 forum posts
Yes you have just said the passage i wrote at the begining of this thread. My point was they have not thought this through. This can not happen in the time frame quoted.
2nd point. What they are aiming at with the heating is to have each household to have an oil rig type drill. Bore down in your garden to a depth of, i do not know & extract heat from the ground permalayer stuff. Pipes will be sank deep in the earth & a water pump will circulate the water & extract the heat from the ground. I know in somewhere like Sweden they do it because the earth at a deep location is quite hot & they make use of it. Free energy.
They quote 15 grand for the drill rig to bore the hole for you. Not sure how the mechanics of it all come together but that is the basic idea. Along with other items like heat pumps which are stated as giving more kwh per unit of electricity make them more efficient than gas. Someone will be along shortly to explain this, as i only know the basics.
I used to spend quite a bit of time in Majorca many years ago. Most of the locals had a water tank on the roof with a solar type panel which circulated water over a reflective corrugated panel. Because it is hot most of the year they had free hot water from this system.
Back to the theory that they have not thought it through. Bear in mind. The government make most of there revenue from. Car tax, Revenue from gas & electricity suppliers etc etc. & petrol + diesel. Huge amounts.
I have a Ftype Jaguar V8 The tax per year is £609. An electric car is free. I buy a crap load of fuel as the thing farts out enough emission to power a small village. But gives the government a huge amount of tax & VAT on fuel.
Move on 10 years or so & tell me ANYONE how this can work.
So now i am super green. I have a solar system on my property , I have a wind generator too. I have a underground water heating system that saves me say 50 to 60% on energy for heat. All these things give the gov 0 . On top of this i have an Electric pram, which is free of tax.
Unless they plan to employ Dick Turpin they are going to be skint & Boris will be on benefits to top up his wage.
Is all this really going to make this little pimple on the map called the UK great again. MMM.
Who gives out the most crap on the planet. India, China, They had to wear masks before Covid for the smog, i cannot see them going totally green like we are supposed to go.
Rant over. Regards all
Edited By Steviegtr on 22/11/2020 00:26:10
|pgk pgk||22/11/2020 07:33:36|
|2033 forum posts|
You are missing the point that taxes are used to : raise revenue, manipulate public choice and/or adjust social status. The incentives available at the moment of reduced EV taxes are to encourage it's uptake. The feed in tariffs that used to come with solar PV were to encourage it's uptake etc just as enterprise zones encouraged businesses to relocate and just as death taxes raise revenue and reduce the creation of dynasties. Amongst those wealthy or astute enough to buy advice or figure out on how to avoid some of these the effects are mitigated.
Remember that in the past there used to even be a tax on number of windows.
You also have to realise that many of these new creations are also ways of creating revenue for political friends and used as part of trade deals (getting on dodgy poitical ground so no more to be said here).
Changes are inevitable but none of the big changes will happen quickly. No new ICE's after 2030 means we won't be all EV etc for 20+ years. If all new homes had heat pumps it'd still be 20-30 years before that filters down to all homes having changed boilers or heating systems.
|not done it yet||22/11/2020 08:09:56|
|5428 forum posts|
Look up Passivhaus as another away of keeping energy usage down with new builds.
Little chance of that working for the majority on this forum. Just check out the proportion of posters who advocate adding extra heating for keeping workshops warmer/dry, rather than insulate, insulate, insulate.
What the majority of posters on this thread don’t seem to grasp is that sooner or later we have to reduce (or stop) burning fossil fuels. Sooner is clearly better (but I suspect there is a significant faction who still think otherwise☹️ ).
|not done it yet||22/11/2020 08:11:09|
|5428 forum posts|
Edited By not done it yet on 22/11/2020 08:11:41
|John Rutzen||22/11/2020 08:19:31|
|295 forum posts|
Electric cars aren't the answer, driving a lot less is. Apparently 50 years ago the average mileage was 5000 per year , now it is 25000. Think of all that time wasted sitting in a car. At least most of us haven't done much driving this year.
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