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Covid causing mental health issues.

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Neil Wyatt24/09/2020 12:52:12
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Just to add, we need to show the same level of understanding for those who find it hard to understand what is going on for some people.

Like many of us I've had my ups and downs over the past months, and last weekend I went mountain biking with my brother and a couple of friends (4 <6!) I can honestly say the combination of effort, excitement and terror meant that for a blessed day I had no other worries whatsoever!

I think that absorption in hobbies (not just this one) really helps as does the ability to share experiences online when we can't meet up.

Though all generations are more comfortable discussing mental health issues these days, it seems many still don't seek help. I would remind anyone who is struggling there is lots of help out there including mental health charities focusing on various groups and these days GPs are much better equipped to help people.

Neil

Clive Hartland24/09/2020 13:23:20
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As an aside, as I live alone and most of my friends are now dead I only have FB or text contact with my Sons.

I have a dog, an Airedale who I talk to often. She is forever hungry and demanding , wanting to go around the garden so the back door is nearly always open. She can open it herself.

The point I am making is that my involvement with Tess is beneficial to me and in some ways theraputic.

How do other members find there dog or cat friends help in these times?

Clive

SillyOldDuffer24/09/2020 14:37:43
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

... In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful ...

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence. Exams when I was a lad were faulty too - they tested memory as much as anything else.

Cleverness also depends on context. Shakespeare's plays show he had no aptitude for maths, while William Shockley (Nobel Prize winning co-inventor of the transistor) was an appalling man-manager who moved on to controversial views, including the idea that anyone with an IQ under 100 should be sterilised. See Neil's graph for why that's ultimately stupid! James Watt was a bad businessman. A colleague fluent in French and German couldn't stay awake during meetings. How about engine designers expert in thermodynamics who can't service their own car. I can write computer programs but don't ask me about music. Most of us shouldn't play poker for money! The list is endless.

Society is a team game, and I reckon the species has evolved the range of brain qualities needed to support all the necessary specialists. Blokes who are good at making things are needed as much as intellectuals and vice versa.

Never believe being clever at one thing guarantees being smart at everything else. Off our patch we are all stupid. There's always a time when the intelligent approach is to send for an expert.

Like IQ, valuing people by what they earn is another horribly misleading measure. Can't be right footballers earn more than nurses because we can manage without soccer! Following through on footballers vs nurses, logic insists anyone who enjoys sport must be a bit thick because they believe men who kick balls should be rewarded more highly than life saving professionals.

devil

Sports fans needn't take the criticism too hard, I don't believe it myself. I'm suggesting the example of dodgy logic and IQ tests are only valid up to a point. Don't take either too seriously! You are all wonderful.

Dave

Georgineer24/09/2020 15:03:55
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Posted by Baz on 22/09/2020 19:27:29:

Now look at it from the point of view of mum dad and two young children, I strongly object to them being called kids, a kid is a young goat. Dad has to work from home, only place he can do this is on the kitchen table, no spare bedroom or study, just a standard modern three bed house, little or no garden so dads trying to work, zoom meetings, telling the children to be quiet why he is talking to customers, mum cannot prepare meals because she needs the table, the children want to see their friends and they cannot so they start picking on each other, mum has to try and keep the peace as well as worrying if dad is still going to have a job next month, etc etc, I can see how it could affect someone’s mental health. True story from a family near me.

A family known to me is even worse off, with three children (one autistic), living in a flat with no garden, father out of work and mother unable to work. We do what we can to help them. I count myself lucky.

I'm afraid, Baz, you may have to accept the 'kids' issue as a lost cause. Punch magazine was taking the mickey as long ago as the 1880s - this is by F. Anstey, author of Vice Versa - and I see no prospect of change.

George B.

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Mike Poole24/09/2020 15:17:52
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I spent my working life in a car factory, most of it as a Control Engineer. The production workers did not need any academic qualifications but have to be able to work hard and reliably and be able to tolerate the relentless repetition of a production line. Curiously you could find very highly qualified people and people with all sorts of skills and talents working there. Some had opted out of life in the fast lane and just wanted a simple job, an alchoholic was always on time and did his job as required, a good worker. Sadly two highly talented lads in our department committed suicide unrelated incidents many years apart but both over relationship problems. The first was a real shock and nobody suspected he was having problems, the second was still a surprise but drugs and poor attendance were signs all was not well.

Mike

larry phelan 124/09/2020 16:36:07
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I would say more likely 75%

Hopper25/09/2020 12:25:00
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Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/09/2020 14:37:43:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

... In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful ...

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence....

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

SillyOldDuffer25/09/2020 13:44:23
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Posted by Hopper on 25/09/2020 12:25:00:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/09/2020 14:37:43:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/09/2020 12:42:51:

... In fact IQ tells us very little that is useful ...

I've certainly found that whether someone is 'clever' or not is a definitely not a measure of their worth.

Neil

I'm not even sure it's worth measuring IQ because the whole concept is built on sand! There's a built-in bias because even with careful design IQ tests depend on education and culture, which aren't intelligence. They detect who is good at answering IQ test questions, which is only one of the many forms of intelligence....

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

Correlations can be misleading too. In the UK for over 30 years there was a strong correlation between violent crime and the sale of White Goods. Yet most people who buy washing machines and fridges aren't criminals. In the same time-frame, the equally strong correlation between violence and ever increasing sales of leaded petrol might seem a more likely cause, except that was unproven too as far as I know.

I suggest the link between income and IQ is as much to do with education and culture than intelligence. Coming from a wealthy well-educated family is more strongly linked to high income than having a disadvantaged background. Not just a matter of inheriting cash and property, it's because a successful background creates more opportunities and the contacts and confidence needed to do great things. Clever people can and do make it on their own merits, but it's much easier to become president of the USA if your dad was a billionaire.

Like a lot of things IQ Tests are useful up to a point, but it pays to understand they may not be valid. For example, IQ scores are rising across the world except in developed nations were it is falling. If IQ tests really measure intelligence, then most forum members reading this are in the group becoming more stupid! Lead in petrol again?

Don't panic, it may be the difference is down to culture. Maybe educated people in developed countries don't care about IQ much - we've moved on.

Just before retiring my workplace got emphatically into competences; ie acquiring skills and measuring performance using them against objectives. No idea if they still do it - as a way of getting people to increase output at reduced cost, I wasn't convinced! Created a lot of stress and inefficiency, but may have come good - I left before any benefits emerged.

Dave

Neil Wyatt25/09/2020 14:32:35
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Posted by Hopper on 25/09/2020 12:25:00:

And yet there is a definite correlation between IQ and income, confirmed by multiple studies. Those with higher IQ tend to have higher incomes over a lifetime, as a general trend. So IQ tests must measure something of practical use in life other than just the ability to take IQ tests.

They tend to be biased in favour of people who are good at written tests, and as we use written tests to measure ability in other areas it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They have found results are also affected by cultural bias; give people tests that reflect their culture (e.g. when matching or differentiating symbols, those we are so used to may not be as easily recognised elsewhere). It's an effect found in other areas the South/East Asian pre-eminence at mathematics is thought by some to be routed in the complexity of growing rice rather than wheat.

Neil

Hopper26/09/2020 03:41:18
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My point was that the correlation between IQ test scores and lifetime income shows that something the IQ test measures is of practical value in real life. Whether that something is intelligence, or culture or education, or (most likely) a combination thereof, the IQ test has its uses as a fairly reliable predictor of things like future income and future academic performance at higher education.

The test can not be discounted as completely useless or as testing only for "the ability to take IQ tests". It has its uses. But certainly is not a measure of a person's value in society or talent in certain areas or emotional intelligence etc. And there are plenty of not-so-smart people who end up fabulously wealthy through other talents such as charisma, people skills, motivation, back stabbing, hard work or just dumb good luck.

Interestingly, while there is a correlation between IQ test scores and lifetime income, there is not the same correlation between IQ scores and overall wealth. IE, higher income people spend more and end up about the same wealth as everyone else in wealth assets such as stock portfolios, home equity, investment properties and retirement funds etc.

At the same time, the IQ test scores of people who own luxury yachts and high-end luxury cars and unusually large investment portfolios is all across the board. Possibly because they inherit their wealth. Or possibly could it be because the high IQ test performers tend to go on to higher education and better jobs and work for a salary all their life? While lower IQ test performers don't end up with so many good-paying jobs so are more likely to explore going into business and other ways of generating wealth over their lifetime?

Lee Rogers26/09/2020 08:49:33
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I am frankly astonished that this thread has becom a discussion about IQ. The level of ignorance displayed in some of the posts is beyond belief. Does anyone think that Winston Churchill ( bipolar disorder) was a snowflake? Mental illness has no respect for any of societies benchmarks. You can't run a vernier over wellbeing or state of mind. The greatest hurdle in tackling mental health issues is acceptance from the sufferer that they exist at all. Next is that some of their nearest and dearest will of the ''pull yourself together'' school. Keep an eye on your friends and be a good listener but above all be kind.

Hopper26/09/2020 10:12:30
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Posted by Lee Rogers on 26/09/2020 08:49:33:

I am frankly astonished that this thread has becom a discussion about IQ. The level of ignorance displayed in some of the posts is beyond belief. Does anyone think that Winston Churchill ( bipolar disorder) was a snowflake? Mental illness has no respect for any of societies benchmarks. You can't run a vernier over wellbeing or state of mind. The greatest hurdle in tackling mental health issues is acceptance from the sufferer that they exist at all. Next is that some of their nearest and dearest will of the ''pull yourself together'' school. Keep an eye on your friends and be a good listener but above all be kind.

Yes we digress. As is not unusual in Tea Room threads or conversations in real life.

The last two words of your post absolutely nails it: Be kind. If there were a lot more of that in the world there would be a lot fewer problems.

Samsaranda26/09/2020 10:48:36
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In the early nineties I had a serious mental breakdown and it was found to be delayed PTSD from unpleasant work experiences earlier in my working life. I was treated by psychiatrists for a number of years and deemed incapable of returning to normal work, a good friend of mine suggested that as I had worked in engineering all my working life then perhaps a lathe and interest in working models would benefit me, he had a similar background and is a Korean War Veteran and found modelling had really helped him. I purchased a lathe and two milling machines and many more tools and I became engrossed with my new hobby, it helped me to slowly recover to a more normal state. I have always had great affection for felines, We currently have four, and I find that sitting in front of a log fire with cats sitting asleep on my lap is very calming. Our cats are precious to us, real members of the family, we have a largish garden which is fully secured so that our cats cannot get out and roam, we are too near a busy road and two of the cats are deaf so wouldn’t stand a chance in the world outside, they love their garden world. Because my wife has severe asthma problems and I recently had pneumonia we have shielded ever since lockdown began in March to avoid the virus, we don’t miss the contact with outsiders and far from being detrimental to our mental health we seem to have an air of calm within the house which we hadn’t had before. As regards talking to animals, I do it all the time with my cats and so does my wife, it causes confusion sometimes because I never know who the wife’s conversations are addressed to, me or one of the cats. In respect of Covid and mental health issues, as far as our household is concerned we seem to be enjoying the lack of contact with the outside world, life seems to proceed at a completely different pace now, a lot less stress, no time pressures to meet deadlines. If people are suffering mental health issues that they attribute to Covid then I am sure that these issues were already with them and suppressed but because of the changes to lifestyle brought about by Covid then their mental health issues were brought to the fore. Meanwhile I am going to continue chilling out and enjoying life in my little family bubble.

Dave W

Mick B126/09/2020 11:34:24
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Now I read that some team of software developers - undoubtedly all of them of high IQ - have failed to allow entry of a negative test result to the NHS Covid-19 phone app if the test was booked by another means.

So the users can't reverse the isolation alert.

It really does beggar belief. I spent donkey's years in software development, and I don't think I've ever seen such a dropout in such an important and trumpeted piece of work. It was because of misgivings about summat like this that I didn't rush to install it.

Of course, it isn't only the fault itself - though FCS that's bad enough - it's wondering what others there might be in there.

Edited By Mick B1 on 26/09/2020 11:39:16

Hopper26/09/2020 11:38:16
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Good to hear you are coping well Samsaranda. I'm sure the cats are a big help. They make wonderful home companions. I doubt I would have made it through some chronic health problems I had for years without my pair of furry criminals.

Cornish Jack26/09/2020 12:22:16
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Apart from engendering respect for other creatures or life forms, pets, of whatever type are a huge benefit. As a 'cat person' I find their presence essential and our two are treated similarly to Samsaranda's. Winston Churchill's dictum that " Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you and pigs is (sic) equal" rings true! An Australian bumper sticker, apparently, proclaiming that "Dogs have owners, cats have staff" equally so. Interactions with dogs are pretty straightforward; with cats, much less so but more rewarding when they work. Yesterday's news of the deeds of a giant rat PDSA 'hero' was quite uplifting!

rgds

Bill

Vic26/09/2020 14:22:55
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Posted by Cornish Jack on 26/09/2020 12:22:16:

Apart from engendering respect for other creatures or life forms, pets, of whatever type are a huge benefit. As a 'cat person' I find their presence essential and our two are treated similarly to Samsaranda's. Winston Churchill's dictum that " Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you and pigs is (sic) equal" rings true! An Australian bumper sticker, apparently, proclaiming that "Dogs have owners, cats have staff" equally so. Interactions with dogs are pretty straightforward; with cats, much less so but more rewarding when they work. Yesterday's news of the deeds of a giant rat PDSA 'hero' was quite uplifting!

rgds

Bill

Yes, Cats are an essential part of our household. A house without having independent creatures wandering around at will doing what they do is just a house to me, it’s not a home.

I too found the article about Magawa the mine finding Rat uplifting as you put it as well.

Peter G. Shaw26/09/2020 15:21:56
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Mick B1,

Unfortunately, I have come across a number of software projects where the programmer has failed to consider the users, and what they may, or may not do.

I'm not a programmer, or software writer, or whatever they wish to call themselves, and I admit that the examples are all trivial, but it still leaves one wondering what else may be wrong. E.g.:-

A list of options, not in any sort of order, and certainly not alphabetic.

A list of options which did not include the necessary (ie it applied to me) of saying "None of the Above"

A programme which asked for my status, eg Employed/Unemployed/Retired. In my case Retired. Two questions down the programme then asked what my employer did.

A screen display using these silly "Almonds" in the corner of the screen, right where it could be mistaken for a screen aberration.

A programme which for no good reason that I can see changed the method of expanding or contracting windows from grabbing hold of the relevant side and moving it, to one whereby the user has to use the top left corner to expand/contract followed by moving the whole window if the required display is off to the right or the bottom.

A programme which in different places asks for an 8 digit number in a 2 x 4 configuration, but later asks for another 8 digit number, this time in a 1 x 8 configuration,ie lack of consistency.

The same programme which in one place places the cursor ready for data input, yet elsewhere does not. Now this could possibly be a security issue, but it would be better to be consistent.

I am therefore no longer surprised at anything a program may, or may not do; programs with a distinct lack of consistency; and above all, no thoughts about the poor user who has to navigate the morass of poor programming.

Peter G. Shaw

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 26/09/2020 15:23:36

Peter G. Shaw26/09/2020 15:30:11
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Cats v. dogs.

I like dogs, provided they have not been "adjusted" by "well-meaning" people to look like something from outer space, and that they are of a reasonable size. Indeed my preferred dog is the Labrador, with the Golden Retriever a close second.

Cats. Don't like them at all. Furthermore, if you must have one, then make sure it is confined to your land, and doesn't go messing on my garden. And no arguments about it's a wild creature, or something similar. You expect dog owners to keep their dogs under control, which I agree with even though I have had two, so why shouldn't I expect cat owners to keep their cats under control.

Peter G. Shaw

Trevor Crossman 126/09/2020 19:12:55
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Since we sold our small farm over 20 years ago, we've not had a dog, cat, budgerigar, or any other living creature inhabiting our house, though we do have a great assortment of wild birds and animals that roarm around our rural plot to watch and get to know, even individual crows for example. Despite having been in almost constant lockdown since the beginning of the Covid event due to my wife's continuing hospital visits which have been the only times that she's been anywhere near other people and personal contact has only been across the garden hedges with passing neighbours. Having been cleared of one cancer, some weeks ago another was detected. Does all this affect our mental health? Too damned right it does! But surely good mental health is not just being happy all the time, but an ability to make it through the darker times by facing them and balancing with the good? We both have a great store of good memories and we're well blessed living in a pleasant rural location, sufficient money, both brought up to be self sufficient and have a wide range of interests to occupy our minds, a good garden, greenhouse and workshop to keep our fingers bodies busy.

There are more people though crammed into poor housing, in rushed immature relationships, and many are only used to socialising for their entertainment, unable to satisfyingly occupy themselves, often on very limited resources. From what I read and hear many of these are suffering and are quite likely to continue to do so long after our well heeled rulers have allowed people to return to normal human existence. I fear that there will be nowhere near enough resources allocated to helping those who are badly affected get back to normal, despite our national wealth which will continue to flow to more prestigious projects . Some of us are tough nuts hard to crack, others need more support, every single one of us no matter how strong and independent we consider ourselves to be , relies on dozens of other people, usually unseen, to live in the modern world, so if you come across someone suffering, do as Lee Rodgers said, let us all be kind and generous with our thoughts and where possible our deeds.

Trevor

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