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Proxon KS230 table saw motor 'kaputt'.

Proxon KS230 table saw.

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Sparks13/08/2020 23:15:19
34 forum posts
3 photos

I only use it for cutting pcb, very rarely for fiber glass, 1 minute into operation, almighty squeal and a minute whiff of slight smoke, blade still spinning then - dead as a dodo.

Soooo, I opened it up, took the motor out and stripped it down. I thought these things suppose to have oil or grease in - nuffing at all like that, dry as a bone. Armature looks OK so did the field coils no smell of varnish as I was expecting.

One of the tiny chokes in series with the brushes was open circuit, I was about to un solder it and one leg fell off so I removed the heat shrink sleaving to find the coil intact a load of soot in the area just above a RFI capacitor that had one leg missing.

I only bought it early January last year so the warranty has just about expired, so I made my feelings known at Proxon, and doubt it's worth paying some £72.50 for a new motor... and the flimsy 'Splitter Wedge' as Proxon calls it that always seem to jam no matter what blade is being used.

I reckon some arching at been going on to create the soot, but what do you reckon on seeing no lubricant.... not even in the bearings?  No over current or temperature sensor at all, 85Watt motor straight on to mains AC via a 1 pole switch.

Dave

 

Edited By Sparks on 13/08/2020 23:18:38

John Haine14/08/2020 06:55:23
3270 forum posts
175 photos

Based on my experience with a couple of Proxxon products I think they are overpriced and under engineered.

Barrie Lever14/08/2020 08:37:53
688 forum posts
76 photos

I am afraid I have to agree with John about Proxxon being under engineered.

I have popped a couple of Proxxon tools with motor issues similar to Dave's.

They have a useful range of tools and the price point is OK if the tools work reliably.

I needed a small hand held electric polisher and Proxxon had the only product at a price that I could justify, I bought the polisher and it works really nicely but for how long ?

About 20 years ago I had a series of Dremel tools have motor problems and vowed to never buy another Dremel, they did sort out the motor issues and I have had Dremel tools again.

What really needs to happen is for Proxxon to be bought out by Bosch like Dremel where, and then some people in Bosch would get the issues sorted out in short order.

B.

Edited By Barrie Lever on 14/08/2020 08:39:59

Brian Oldford14/08/2020 09:17:28
avatar
684 forum posts
18 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 14/08/2020 08:37:53:

I am afraid I have to agree with John about Proxxon being under engineered.

I have popped a couple of Proxxon tools with motor issues similar to Dave's.

They have a useful range of tools and the price point is OK if the tools work reliably.

I needed a small hand held electric polisher and Proxxon had the only product at a price that I could justify, I bought the polisher and it works really nicely but for how long ?

About 20 years ago I had a series of Dremel tools have motor problems and vowed to never buy another Dremel, they did sort out the motor issues and I have had Dremel tools again.

What really needs to happen is for Proxxon to be bought out by Bosch like Dremel where, and then some people in Bosch would get the issues sorted out in short order.

B.

Edited By Barrie Lever on 14/08/2020 08:39:59

I'm sure the likes of Makita or DeWalt could also sort them out too.

Barrie Lever14/08/2020 09:46:18
688 forum posts
76 photos
Posted by Brian Oldford on 14/08/2020 09:17:28:

I'm sure the likes of Makita or DeWalt could also sort them out too.

Makita maybe, DeWalt no they are rather over rated IMO. I had quite a few DeWalt tools before the penny dropped that they were not what they were making out to be, only got a jigsaw left now.

Fein are the best hand power tools IMO. I have a big polisher, 9" angle grinder, 9.6v and 18v drills and they are all bomb proof. I did have a Fein Multimaster die on me but it had suffered years of abuse and seriously hard work, worth every penny of the £150.00 that it cost around 20 years ago.

I would love Proxxon to sort out their issues but it will be a slow process due to cultural issues.

B.

IanT14/08/2020 09:46:43
1581 forum posts
145 photos

Sorry to hear about your saw Dave.

I thought Proxxon warranty was for two years now but maybe it depends on where you purchased it.

I've had one of these little saws for many years. I use it to trim/cut small wood sections for my G3 modelling and it works well within its limits - giving a very fine cut. It does have a number of limitations, including a lack of height adjustment for the blade and a less than accurate mitre & fence but these can be overcome with some fiddling. I have larger saw tables that are better in many ways but none will cut so finely.

With regards 'grease' - it's not something I really want in the works of my wood saws. I clean mine out after every use and grease and fine wood dust are not a good combination in this respect. I do agree that Proxxon tools are somewhat expensive but the ones I have seem to work well enough when used within their limits.

Being a bit of a bodger at heart, where I need something more 'robust' for my small scale work, I like adapting larger (older) tools. For instance, I have several Coronet combination machines that were very popular back in the 50-60's. They are very well made (much better than todays stuff) but were a compromise for any serious (full scale) 'woodworker' - having relatively small saw tables for instance. However, with some simple accessories, they are very good modellers tools - where the smaller size of materials they handle comfortably isn't a limitation.

My Proxxons work OK for the light duties I use them for but for "heavier" work I think larger machines adapted for (the relatively) smaller work are often a better (and cheaper) option.

Regards,

IanT

Sparks14/08/2020 09:50:30
34 forum posts
3 photos

I can agree with Barry Lever. the TBM220 still going OK, looks like they had the afterthought of missing a lamp out under the bottom where the drill fits... looks like a cut out for a lamp shade device, my guess is this would involve a little more expense.... ten minutes ON then give it a rest - that is sure a good indication of under engineering.

I Agree the prices seem high for what they are, a lump of plastic , a coil of wire... and NO lubricant in the motor!

Looking at the RFI chokes looks as if they doubled for a fuse, the wire, about 15 to 20 turns of.... about 40 SWG on a ferrite rod of some permeability - 36SWG I have is far thicker!

I couldn't resist firing my satisfaction of to Proxxon - this darn motor WAS MADE to fail in my view.

Dave

 

Edited By Sparks on 14/08/2020 09:51:14

Edited By Sparks on 14/08/2020 09:53:06

Michael Gilligan14/08/2020 11:04:33
avatar
16195 forum posts
706 photos

At the risk of breaching forum rules ... I offer this link : **LINK**

http://yaya-online.com/-e-n-/shpSR.php?A=1613&p1=520

Not as a recommendation, but simply as a source of useful dimensional information.

MichaelG.

R Johns14/08/2020 14:46:03
31 forum posts

I had an identical issue with their long neck grinder which was well out of warranty. A capacitor blew. To my surprise after contacting proxxon explaining the light use the machine had compared to the more robust rotary tool of theirs they replaced the unit for free.

Having had numerous proxxon tools I am of the opinion that they don't make them like they use to do.

ega14/08/2020 14:48:31
1786 forum posts
152 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 14/08/2020 09:46:18:
. I did have a Fein Multimaster die on me but it had suffered years of abuse

Mine survives but has one serious design flaw, namely, that the tool is held solely by friction and however much tightened can work loose in use.

I recall pointing this out to a Fein rep and later noticed that they brought out a new version with positive location of the tool; later still they and others brought out an SDS version. My impression is that the tool is otherwise well made and I think Fein deserve credit for inventing the tool category.

Sparks14/08/2020 15:55:01
34 forum posts
3 photos

Thanks to Micheal Gilligan I've bookmarked the link - just in case, whether I'll repair or not I ain't bothered to be honest... might even blow my mind and get a pcb guillotine - the flimsy splitter wedge saw to that, very poorly designed I'd say, they don't flap around on a proper table saw do they.

If Proxxon wants to replace it OK, I doubt I'll be handing £72 over for a thing like that..... Bearings - aren't they supposed to be greased since we are talking about two dissimilar metals and 85 Watts of heat traveling down the shaft, I bet all your Bosch, De Walt and other machinery will have grease in them?

Dave

?

Barrie Lever14/08/2020 16:03:49
688 forum posts
76 photos
Posted by ega on 14/08/2020 14:48:31:
Posted by Barrie Lever on 14/08/2020 09:46:18:
. I did have a Fein Multimaster die on me but it had suffered years of abuse

Mine survives but has one serious design flaw, namely, that the tool is held solely by friction and however much tightened can work loose in use.

I recall pointing this out to a Fein rep and later noticed that they brought out a new version with positive location of the tool; later still they and others brought out an SDS version. My impression is that the tool is otherwise well made and I think Fein deserve credit for inventing the tool category.

Ega

You must have really been putting some load on your Fein to have the tool move, I just used to do mine up really tight (that thread is superbly strong).

Fein had that oscillating head patented all over the place, when the patents expired is when we saw the market burst open with rigid head oscillating tools, of course that was pre China being really big in copying tools.

B.

SillyOldDuffer14/08/2020 18:23:26
Moderator
6186 forum posts
1345 photos

Posted by Sparks on 14/08/2020 15:55:01:

... Bearings - aren't they supposed to be greased since we are talking about two dissimilar metals and 85 Watts of heat traveling down the shaft, I bet all your Bosch, De Walt and other machinery will have grease in them?

Dave

The small bearings I've had apart looked more like an anti-moisture film than grease or oil. Probably deliberate because dinky fast motors don't have the grunt needed to push through sticky grease, and oil flies about. Likely the bearings in an 85W 5000rpm saw rely more on minimised rolling resistance than conventional lubrication.

Are the bearings confirmed as root cause? From the symptoms I suggest the saw blade gripped, stalled the motor, and caused the 'fuse' to blow. Possibly blade blunted by cutting PCB? I've found printed circuit boards murder blades, and not just the fibre-glass type.

The motor is may still be OK if the damaged coil and capacitor fused. I'd replace them with a similarly thin bit of wire and try again.

Barrie gets a Special Mention in Dispatches for the most impractical forum fix offered this year: What really needs to happen is for Proxxon to be bought out by Bosch like Dremel, and then some people in Bosch would get the issues sorted out in short order. (Only teasing Barrie, but that's exactly what you typed. Not sure how Sparks will arrange the takeover!)

devil

Dave

Michael Gilligan14/08/2020 18:46:24
avatar
16195 forum posts
706 photos

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/08/2020 18:23:26:

.

The small bearings I've had apart looked more like an anti-moisture film than grease or oil. Probably deliberate because dinky fast motors don't have the grunt needed to push through sticky grease, and oil flies about. Likely the bearings in an 85W 5000rpm saw rely more on minimised rolling resistance than conventional lubrication.

.

”rolling resistance”

Just a question [because I don't know] ... Does the aforementioned motor have ball-bearings, or ‘Oilite style’ bushes ?

MichaelG.

larry phelan 114/08/2020 20:52:47
804 forum posts
14 photos

That reminds me, I must check the bearings in my 50+ yearold home made saw bench !

Maybe they need to be greased, or maybe I should just leave them alone, since they are doing OK ?

These little Micky Mouse "tools" are not made for serious work, just for playing with.. Get yourself a real saw.

Barrie Lever14/08/2020 21:57:47
688 forum posts
76 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/08/2020 18:23:26:

Barrie gets a Special Mention in Dispatches for the most impractical forum fix offered this year: What really needs to happen is for Proxxon to be bought out by Bosch like Dremel, and then some people in Bosch would get the issues sorted out in short order. (Only teasing Barrie, but that's exactly what you typed. Not sure how Sparks will arrange the takeover!)

devil

Dave

Dave

That is exactly what I typed, I would help Sparks with the take over if I could !!

Seriously there is a place for tools like Proxxon and at that price point, they just need to have a small rocket placed up their backside on these engineering/reliability issues and Bosch could do that with no problem.

B.

Michael Briggs14/08/2020 22:04:38
194 forum posts
9 photos

My Proxxon IB/E is about 15 years old, well built and runs true, head and shoulders better than any rotary tool I have seen from Dremel.

Michael Gilligan14/08/2020 22:42:26
avatar
16195 forum posts
706 photos

This may be of interest : **LINK**

http://www.melzer.cc/?p=896

It’s five years old, and in German

... here’s a translation courtesy of DeepL

[quote]

The (inexpensive) circular table saw suddenly stopped working after intensive use. After unscrewing it, a (80W?) sewing machine motor could be detected. Replacement price of the motor approx. 50€. Does not make much sense with a new price of the circular saw of approx. 90€. Further the motor was screwed on. Nothing smokes, nothing burns, not even the "typical" smell of burnt electronics. After measuring the few components/winding it became clear that an interference suppression coil has become highly resistive. The imprint "7R8K" is not very helpful.7R8KI cut open the heat shrink tube. Wound up enamelled copper wire (as expected). Common values of interference suppression chokes are in the μH range. I close 7,8μH. Spare ordered (10μH) and soldered in.ks230_2The saw "does" again. :mrgreen:

This entry was posted on July 24, 2015 under General.

[/quote]

.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I probably shouldn’t link the video, because it provides reference to component sellers ... but I note that another German chap has provided  - Mehr Power für die Säge! - by installing a brushless DC motor.

Nice !

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/08/2020 23:02:46

duncan webster14/08/2020 22:51:45
avatar
2734 forum posts
40 photos

I've got a Proxon table saw, even after plenty of abuse it's still going strong. As far as benefiting from being taken over by Bosch my Bosch strimmer is the biggest heap of junk I've ever bought. The telescopic handle is held together with duct tape, and every time I switch it off the inertia of the spool holding the string overcomes the lock, and if I don't remember to upend it and re-lock every time it then throws the spool across the garden. When I rang to complain I was asked if I wanted to book it in for a paid for (by me) repair. I won't repeat my reply.

Edited By duncan webster on 14/08/2020 22:53:08

Barrie Lever15/08/2020 00:21:54
688 forum posts
76 photos

Duncan

You had better hope that next time you drive your car that all the Bosch components keep working in harmony , brakes, ignition/glowplugs, pumps, lights and the list just goes on !! I doubt you will say that your car is a heap of junk !!

I have had 2 out of 3 Proxxon items fail but they do offer good solutions, if they keep going. All the Bosch equipment I have keeps working.

B.

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