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Basic Electrics

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ChrisH15/07/2020 21:45:50
862 forum posts
29 photos

" needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now" - to wire in a 13 amp plug? Surely not!

Not so many years ago, back in the day, every electrical appliance you bought necessitated you then going out and buying a 13 amp plug, plus 3A and/or 5A fuses, (because very little of what you bought required a 13 fuse but thats what all plugs came - still does I think) and then fitting that to said just bought electrical appliance. And everyone did it. Even those thick-as-two-freezer-doors dumbos could wire in a 13A plug back then, and without disasters - I cannot recall newspapers or radio news or TV news running stories about someone blowing themselves up wiring in a 13A plug every day, or ever even. Wiring in a 13A plug was the first DIY job you learned back then, you just had to know it, so people did it. And survived.

So why has Nanny now decided that we're all so stupid and incapable that we require a sparky and a certificate of conformity to wire in a 13A plug? Just because electrical stuff now comes with a plug fitted? Then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely, on our own, without a certificate of conformity or going on a compulsory two day training course first, or holding someones hand. The world is slowly going mad!

And you wonder why people just switch off. Not '1984' yet is it?

End of rant for the day

Tony Pratt 115/07/2020 22:54:44
1149 forum posts
5 photos

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

Nicholas Farr16/07/2020 06:23:06
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2318 forum posts
1137 photos

Hi ChrisH, you could and still can get 13 amp plugs fitted with a 3 amp or 5 amp fuse 13A with 3A fuse 13A with 5A fuse the problem was/is not everyone stock them. As far as I'm aware, you can fit a plug yourself for your own use, but you may be restricted in a place of work.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/07/2020 06:35:54

derek hall 116/07/2020 07:34:51
81 forum posts

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty .....

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

Derek

Nicholas Farr16/07/2020 08:27:56
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2318 forum posts
1137 photos

Hi Dereck Hall 1, it is quite possible that if you cut off a factory fitted plug that is the moulded on type you may well invalidate any warranty, however if you do and fit a rewireable plug, you must ensure that the fuse rating that you fit in the rewireable plug, is no higher that fitted in the original plugs rating, this will be found somewhere on the plug, normally on the pin side, as in the photo below, with the max fuse rating above a line over the voltage with a sine wave sine to the right. In the photo below, it is 5/250 i.e. 5 amps 250 volts max.

bs1363 plug.jpg

Regards Nick.

Harry Wilkes16/07/2020 09:04:04
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929 forum posts
61 photos
Posted by ChrisH on 15/07/2020 21:45:50:

" needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now" - to wire in a 13 amp plug? Surely not!

Not so many years ago, back in the day, every electrical appliance you bought necessitated you then going out and buying a 13 amp plug, plus 3A and/or 5A fuses, (because very little of what you bought required a 13 fuse but thats what all plugs came - still does I think) and then fitting that to said just bought electrical appliance. And everyone did it. Even those thick-as-two-freezer-doors dumbos could wire in a 13A plug back then, and without disasters - I cannot recall newspapers or radio news or TV news running stories about someone blowing themselves up wiring in a 13A plug every day, or ever even. Wiring in a 13A plug was the first DIY job you learned back then, you just had to know it, so people did it. And survived.

So why has Nanny now decided that we're all so stupid and incapable that we require a sparky and a certificate of conformity to wire in a 13A plug? Just because electrical stuff now comes with a plug fitted? Then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely, on our own, without a certificate of conformity or going on a compulsory two day training course first, or holding someones hand. The world is slowly going mad!

And you wonder why people just switch off. Not '1984' yet is it?

End of rant for the day

"then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely,

Well Chris what can I add other than hope the link works link

H

Nicholas Farr16/07/2020 09:21:00
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2318 forum posts
1137 photos

Hi Harry, beggar's belief, but went in doubt, better to be cautious I suppose.

Regards Nick.

Samsaranda16/07/2020 09:43:23
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940 forum posts
5 photos

We always seem to be so hung up with fuses that we relate to protecting the appliance where in reality the fuse is there to protect the supply cable. If an appliance, e.g. a lighting appliance comes with a plug fitted with for instance a 5 amp fuse then you will find in reality the cable will be rated for 5 amps and to change the fuse for a higher rating, say 13 amp, will compromise the safety of the cable if the appliance develops a fault.
Dave W

Nick Clarke 316/07/2020 09:47:25
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812 forum posts
28 photos
Posted by derek hall 1 on 16/07/2020 07:34:51:

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty .....

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

Derek

I don't know either, but I suspect if the plug failed for any reason and you claimed under warranty they would say it was a user replaceable item.

Nick Clarke 316/07/2020 10:05:24
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812 forum posts
28 photos

The understanding of domestic electrical wiring is still in the UK National Curriculum and in the latest specification for GCSE from the Exam board I work with wiring a plug is explicitly given as a suggested practical activity.

I have been teaching this off an on for more that 40 years to O level, CSE, 16+ and GCSE students so if it should be not allowed anymore perhaps they ought to tell a few more people about it!

ChrisH16/07/2020 10:07:00
862 forum posts
29 photos

Not knickers in a twist Tony, more a sad reflection of where we are going in modern life.

Brugge market picture I am not surprised at. The area of Brittany I go to, the town street markets frequently have trailing leads across the pavement to provide power to some of the traders; a tripping hazard to be avoided in the UK but the French do not make a fuss and just step over the leads, no more tripping over them than they do the kerb.

A supermarket in the nearby town last Feb/March was renewing itself internally whilst remaining open for business, at some points there were bunches of cables coming up from the floor for the freezer cabinets in the middle of open space, not fenced off in any way - but no freezer cabinets, they were still to be relocated. Another triping hazard you might say, but everyone just ignored them and avoided them, no worries. Not saying its right, just another way of doing things, different ships different splices as the saying goes.

Attitudes and practices related to H&S are very different abroad, again not saying its right, its just the way other countries do things, but it doesn't appear to be a big issue with reports of people suffering accidents or injuries.

Gary Wooding16/07/2020 10:29:06
732 forum posts
192 photos

***This*** makes interesting reading.

SillyOldDuffer16/07/2020 11:38:35
5939 forum posts
1282 photos
Posted by Gary Wooding on 16/07/2020 10:29:06:

***This*** makes interesting reading.

But most would struggle to get through Wikipedia, which shows 'Common Sense' is a difficult concept! Seems easy and obvious, but look closely and it's a tar pit.

I argue it's safer to assume there's is no such thing as common sense. There's no agreement about what it is, and because it can't be defined it can't be enforced. It depends on assumptions, opinion and beliefs, which vary between individuals, families, occupations, religions, politics, nationalities and circumstances. The whole idea is built on sand. Gimme facts, evidence, training, guidelines, experience and laws any day.

Perhaps the most serious problem with common sense is assuming everyone has it, when so much of what we know comes from years of experience. Boys temporarily baffled by tape measures are no more foolish than grandads who don't understand cybercrime. Neither is common sense!

But there are two basic types of problem in the world. When attacked by a hungry bear it pays to act quickly without thinking through lots of alternatives. Common sense pays when speed matters more than getting the best possible answer. However, as soon as the emergency is over, its better to think out a cunning anti-bear plan. Common sense is left in the dust whenever there's time to consider the facts, unless of course paralysis by analysis kicks in! For that reason it's best to have a balanced mix of practical and theoretical skills when decision making. It's never easy.

Dave

Oven Man16/07/2020 11:51:58
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60 forum posts
6 photos
Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 16/07/2020 09:47:25:
Posted by derek hall 1 on 16/07/2020 07:34:51:

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty .....

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

The safety officer at one on Englands large universities wouldn't have a moulded plug on site. They were all immediately cut off and rewirable ones fitted.

We trained our reps at work how to fit a 13 amp plug and provided them with a cerificate to show they were competent. It was always interesting to see the reaction of a customers safety officer when they queried if our guy was allowed to fit a plug on the equipment he was delivering. Never had any problems once the certificate was presented.

Peter

not done it yet16/07/2020 12:29:27
4747 forum posts
16 photos
Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 15/07/2020 22:54:44:

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

Quite right. The term is 'competent'. One can even rewire one's home if competent to do so. I t just needs to be to the current standard and be signed off by an accredited electrician.

Anything beyond the fixed power outlets are fair game for anyone. One just needs to be competent. That is something that is not checked, very often, with those posters asking questions on the forum.

Moulded plugs have to be fitted because there are so many incompetents out there.smiley It's the only way to be idiot-proof - until God invents a better idiot!

Ian Welford16/07/2020 12:29:28
290 forum posts

Working for a large chemist chain it always amused me that to fit a plug we had to be “certified” , I never was but it was always an amusing question to ask at a managers meeting if bored.

I can recall serveral colleagues who could have been “”certified “but not for that reason !

I always check the plug fuse rating anyway. Can I just say many thanks to Nick as I never knew that was the identification on the plug, live and learn.

regards

Ian

Robert Atkinson 216/07/2020 12:49:26
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704 forum posts
16 photos

You can change a plug or do minor electrical work in your home with no requirement for training etc. Notifiable work and work in special locations (e.g. bathroooms) generally requires you to be part P registered. There is still no requirement for formal qualifications, just that you are "competent" . Registration requirements vary with organisation. But you don't HAVE to be registered, you can do it yourself, IF you can convince your local building control that you are competent AND pay for any inspections they want carried out. I've not tried this, but rumour has it that you are unlikely to be sucessful or it would cost more than using a register electrician.

The other thing you can do is agree in advance with a registered electrician how much work you can do yourself. a They then do the final connection, test and notification. This I have done, running SWA cable fitting mounting boxes etc and it saved a fair bit.

Robert G8RPI.

Nicholas Farr16/07/2020 13:58:56
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2318 forum posts
1137 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 16/07/2020 12:29:27:
Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 15/07/2020 22:54:44:

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

Quite right. The term is 'competent'.

.........................

Moulded plugs have to be fitted because there are so many incompetents out there.smiley It's the only way to be idiot-proof - until God invents a better idiot!

Hi NDIY, not quite correct, however any new electrical item that plugs into the mains must have a plug fitted before it is sold in the UK, but it doesn't have to be a moulded one. All the electrical items with exception to an under the counter freezer that I have bought in the recent past, have rewireable plugs on them, all purchased from reputable retailers. I don't think it was totally down to "idiots" ill fitting, but there were many people, like disabled, elderly, infirm and people with low budgets etc. that had to pay extra to have them fitted which was deemed to be unfair.

Regards Nick.

Len Morris 216/07/2020 17:23:59
17 forum posts

I think the issue is quite simple. On public or industrial premises HSE require all electrical work to be done by a certificated person, This covers everybody's backside as regards legal claims and insurance.

john fletcher 116/07/2020 18:11:30
603 forum posts

Apparently under the building regulations electric work should be certified by a competent person .Being retired several years and out of tough with modern wiring regulations, but having the highest City & Guilds qualification in Electrical Installation work I tried to become a competent person and what a run round I got, I should have been a kitchen fitter or domestic installer. Common sense is in very short supply. John

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