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Emco FB2 Quirks and Additions

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Graham Meek07/08/2020 11:01:32
253 forum posts
184 photos

While on the Rotary Table here are a couple of items I have made and which have proved useful over the years.

The first is a Location Plug for the centre of the Table. This reduces the locating diameter from, (I think), 36 mm to 6 mm diameter.

fig centre location plug and retaining spigot.jpg

It also allows for an M6 hold down bolt in the centre of the table, (see set-up a few posts above). It needs careful construction as the table top surface and the Plug top surface want to be coincidental.

The part was first roughed out and the M6 tapped hole put in from the bottom, about 2/3rds the depth. Otherwise the tap will ruin any 6 mm bored hole. As the outside diameter of an M6 tap is always plus on nominal size. The 6 mm bored hole, the finish turning of the location diameter, and finishing to length being done from the other side during the same operation.

fig esx collet holder and split location ring.jpg

This is something I have been meaning to make for some time, but was only completed recently. While I have the Emco Collet attachment and Adaptor plate the setting up time can be protracted. There is one drawback with the Emco standard set-up which has cropped up in my career a couple of times and that is it is difficult to offset the standard set-up in order to machine a radius on a part which has an integral spigot.

To this end the new attachment has a split location ring that can be removed should the need to offset the Collet holder arise again. It is also much quicker to set-up initially.

Regards

Gray,

Graham Meek13/08/2020 17:40:41
253 forum posts
184 photos

One other thing relating to the Rotary Table, which I posted under my "Emco FB2 Earning its keep" post, last year, but something some of those following this post may not have seen. This is an extension handle for the Worm drive handle.

rotary table set-up.jpg

extension components.jpg

As can be seen from the first photograph the extension makes turning the worm drive handle much easier when the job or workpiece is overhanging the table. Note the 6 mm dowel locating the radius centre from the Location Plug.

Regards

Gray,

Graham Meek17/08/2020 11:10:39
253 forum posts
184 photos

One annoyance I had with the Emco Quill clamping lever was its tendency to drop down without warning once the quill was released. This meant the carefully adjusted clearance for drilling was then lost. This combined with a dislike of using tapped holes in Cast Iron as part of the clamping regime.

Far better to have a stud in the tapped hole and some form of lever clamp on the open end of the stud or even a nut. The stud is far easier to replace than the tapped hole in the machine.

To this end I added the following modification. The stud with its fine thread for the tube nut allows the clearance to be preset and this is not disturbed once set. The clamping washer has a disc spring beneath it so that the lever stays put once released.

The first picture shows the simple version in the background with a De-Luxe needle roller thrust race version in the foreground. This has been the current set-up for some while.

fig quill fine adjustment and de-luxe needle roller version.jpg

fig quill clearance adjustment nut.jpg

fig lever locked.jpg

lever un-locked, note lever stays put.jpg

The Vertical clamping Lever has also been changed to my preferred stud and lever system to which I have added another roller thrust race. Note that the thrust washer nearest the handle is the 2 mm thick option. Also in the photograph is the revised vertical clearance adjustment with nuts and studs, instead of bolts. These studs are a good fit in the stud hole so that they maintain alignment of the slider casting when any adjustment is made. The adjustment is made by the two shouldered nuts which have a 1 mm pitch thread and thus give the chance of a finer adjustment. All threads are screwcut to maintain concentricity and alignment.

fig modified vertical lever and needle roller thrust bearing.jpg

Regards

Gray

Graham Meek22/08/2020 12:17:59
253 forum posts
184 photos

I have been asked over the years about my way of working. That is do I mark-out components then centre popping and drilling any holes from this. For me, this is going the long way around, but I will readily admit some jobs do not warrant my way of working, or are just too big or complicated to mount on the mill.

All my work is done by co-ordinate location, the fixed vice jaw of the machine vice being set to Zero for the Y-axis. The Vice End Stop being the X-axis Zero. This way of working has other benefits when milling a component. Knowing the size of the cutter being used I can mill any up-stand or step to size without reference to my Vernier, simply by using my dials and scales on the machine.

Locating the fixed jaw face is done with the following little item I made many years ago from an mild steel off-cut.

fig jaw locator and edge finder.jpg

The curved rear face of the bar stock ensures the flat face is up against the fixed jaw. A tipping moving jaw combined with a rectangular block could give a false reading. Due to the tipping moving jaw making the rectangular block cant over to towards the moving jaw.

fig edge locator in use.jpg

Three for the price of one here, first the edgefinder set-up, the edge-finder is again home made.

Secondly the two holes in the moving vice jaw are M5 tapped holes. A Delrin plug and M5 grubscrew lock the moving jaw slide adjustment screws. The moving jaw adjustment lasts a lot longer with this modification.

Thirdly is my vice stop for locating similar components in the vice with reference to the X-axis. To locate longer components I have an extender stud which screws into the same location and the stop screws into this in the same way as it does the vice.

Under the head of the M6 hex-headed bolt is a Disc spring washer which allows the stop to be un-clamped and adjusted without fear of the stop dropping due to gravity, while I locate the M6 spanner. The disc spring also keeps swarf out from the interfaces by keeping them in contact. The 3 mm diameter silver steel rod is housed in a split bush which is retained in the stop by a circlip. The fit is extremely good and the head of the split bush is on the thrust side of the stop. The locking screw is an M4 capscrew which means the same 3 mm Allen key used to adjust the machines Quill depth stop can be used to lock the vice stop. One less item to have to locate, (had I used an M4 grubscrew this would need a 2 mm key).

Regards

Gray,

Joseph Noci 122/08/2020 12:59:41
738 forum posts
940 photos

One annoyance I had with the Emco Quill clamping lever was its tendency to drop down without warning once the quill was released & The Vertical clamping Lever has also been changed to my preferred stud and lever system to which I have added another roller thrust race.

 

Excellent solutions here Graham!

I am going to do the vertical clamping lever ASAP. The quill clamp does not bother me too much, but I use the vertical clamp a lot, especially with the heavier cuts, and find the stiction of the lever quite annoying when fastening/loosening a few dozen times during the process. I never thought of a thrust bearing there! Very neat. I also like the curved setting bar..

My EMCO rotary table has been 'computerised' with a stepper allowing quick angle settings, and even continuous rotary motion to allow automated rotary feed for milling circular curves and slots. Fitting a rotary encoder to the FB2 spindle also allows me to do hobbing with the rotary table.

rotary table on mill table.jpg

temp encoder mount.jpg

 

 

complete unit.jpg

 

I also made a sort of Set-Tru arrangement for a fitted chuck - a fixed ring, bolted to the rotary table , with a chuck back plate, a sort of 'slip-plate' that can be centered via the 4 side cap screws, and the the peripheral caps screw bolted down fast. Set up the work piece in the chuck, back of the peripheral fixings, set the table in rotary mode so it turns continuously with a dial gauge on the work piece and adjust as one would a 4 jaw setup. Works well enough for me!

centering ring complete with backplate.jpg

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 22/08/2020 13:00:11

Graham Meek23/08/2020 12:12:05
253 forum posts
184 photos

Nice work Joe and thanks for sharing your ideas on this post.

The chuck adaptor is a clever idea, I suspect that would make a good article?

Is that a Flywheel on the end of the stepper motor drive pulley?

Regards

Gray,

Circlip23/08/2020 13:12:53
1167 forum posts

Refreshing to see a couple of ENGINEERS playing nicely.laugh

Regards Ian.

Bazyle23/08/2020 14:39:58
avatar
5391 forum posts
206 photos

Appologies for a brief hijack on the FB2 subject.
I notice that Graham's machine is red clearly branded and Joseph's is green. Online pictures of Emco's are mostly green. Did The FB2 get rebranded or cloned? I'm advising an estate from a photo 99% looking like an FB2, that looks like Warco green, definately has no brand name, but nearby is a Warco sticky metal label that looks like it fell off it.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/08/2020 14:41:18

Graham Meek23/08/2020 15:55:15
253 forum posts
184 photos
Posted by Bazyle on 23/08/2020 14:39:58:

Appologies for a brief hijack on the FB2 subject.
I notice that Graham's machine is red clearly branded and Joseph's is green. Online pictures of Emco's are mostly green. Did The FB2 get rebranded or cloned? I'm advising an estate from a photo 99% looking like an FB2, that looks like Warco green, definately has no brand name, but nearby is a Warco sticky metal label that looks like it fell off it.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/08/2020 14:41:18

No problem with hijacking the thread,

My machine is one of the last to come out of the Emco factory at Hallein, in Austria. The machine was purchased in 1996, the Emco colours were changed with the introduction of a revised electrical layout on the FB2. My machine has the switch gear, low volt transformer, emergency stop and connection blocks housed in the sloping front of the swarf tray.

The Red, Grey and Black was introduced with the Emco F3 mill, (roughly about 1990), and its sister machines the F4 & F5, (this designation has changed in recent years to F3B or FB3 etc).

There was a clone which was Red, Cream, (might have been Off-White), and Black, the name of which escapes me, but was only on the market here in the UK for a short while.

Warco did do a clone, but I think this machine had the Myford Spindle nose. Emco machines are plain at the spindle nose with two spanner flats. (See the spindle lock earlier in this post for a photograph). The base casting on the Warco was also a dead give away with its sloping sides. (This is the same shape as the current Emco Maximat F1 Mill Drill). The motor on the Warco was also of bigger proportions with the ON/OFF switch on the side of the motor.

However an FB2 head that was originally supplied with the Maximat Super 11 lathe also had the ON/OFF switch on the side of the motor. As the co-ordinate milling table could be purchased separately at one time, for those wishing to make an FB2 mill, by using the lathe milling head. It is therefore possible to have an FB2 with a non standard ON/OFF switch arrangement. The standard switch on a Green machine is on the side of the casting mounted on a detachable metal cover plate, the capacitor is also under the cover plate.

Finally I do believe Emco supplied a Badged version of the FB2 to AJAX, I think these were Blue, but I have not seen one in the flesh.

Hope these notes help

Regards

Gray,

Edited By Graham Meek on 23/08/2020 15:58:34

mgnbuk23/08/2020 16:44:12
792 forum posts
61 photos

Finally I do believe Emco supplied a Badged version of the FB2 to AJAX, I think these were Blue, but I have not seen one in the flesh.

I'm pretty certain that the Ajax machines were Taiwanese. My current machine is a composite - an Ajax base & table assembly (which has sloping sides to the base & was supplied painted a light hammer finish grey) and a column/head assembly that came from Denford's stores & was fitted with the casting that was intended to be mounted at the rear of a lathe bed - this was painted Denford's house turquoise colour, but I think that it had been re-painted. The lathe bed attachment casting has been cluttering up my garage ever since & is available FOC to anyone who wants to collect it !

Ajax used to be a customer of my last employer. I went to the Bredbury site quite often over a number of years & knew the technical people there well. On one occasion I was over to measure up a lathe to see if we could come up with an add-on automatic component loading / unloading solution for an enquiry they had received & my visit coincided with a general culling of obsolete parts from the stores. I recognised the base / table assembly that was positioned near the skip & mentioned it to my host, who promptly offered to load it into my car rather than the skip - it would have been rude to have refused ! Ajax had stopped selling the machines at that point & it was thought that the head/column had probably been supplied as a warranty replacement at some point.

I bought the ex-Denford head & column from Mercer's in Cleckheaton, who had bought several direct from Denfords when they were having a stores clearout. Again. I think this was Taiwanese. My first FB2 clone was supplied new to the first owner by Mercer's, who had imported several from Taiwan - these were painted a brightish hammered green & also had the sloping sided base casting. The original owner had stripped the Tufnol drive gear on a couple of occasions & bought the replacement parts (at great expense !) from Ajax until a friend of his(who worked in the toolroom at David Brown Gears locally) made up a couple of bronze replacements - I kept (and still have) the "spare" one when I sold that machine.

I seem to think that Warco offered two different clones - the early one (which had the Myford nose) was Taiwanese & the later one (called the ZX16 IIRC) was Chinese. The fit & finish on the Chinese version was not as good as the Taiwanese one.

Chester's Champion mill (which Warco also sold as the ZX15 IIRC) used what appeared to be a copy of the FB2 base assembly with a poorly designed 4 speed belt drive head & nasty column arrangement. This had a copy of the Emco 3 speed feed gearbox, though, one of which I bought at a Chester open day with a damaged motor cover & which fitted on to my Ajax table without any problems, other than the feedrates shown on the plate are for a 60Hz motor, not 50Hz.

Axminster also offered this style of machine for a while. I seem to think that theirs were Taiwanese as well & were finished in their "house" colours (turquoise /white).

Last time I looked (a couple of years ago) there was still a Taiwanse MTB offering this model - shame nobody brings it in, as they are good little machines.

Probably way more information than anybody wanted .....

Nigel B.

Joseph Noci 123/08/2020 16:56:03
738 forum posts
940 photos
Posted by Graham Meek on 23/08/2020 12:12:05:

Nice work Joe and thanks for sharing your ideas on this post.

The chuck adaptor is a clever idea, I suspect that would make a good article?

Is that a Flywheel on the end of the stepper motor drive pulley?

Regards

Gray,

Graham,

The device on the stepper shaft is a 'rattle damper' - I am unsure as to where that name comes from, but it describes the device well. Sort of an inertial flywheel damper, but has constantly varying resonance frequencies, seemingly dependant of the excitation frequency. It works very well! It has enabled much faster accelerations, no more lost steps at the low speed end, etc. The science behind it seems shrouded in witchcraft, which annoys me!

Don't wish to contaminate the FB2 thread with too much divergence on dampers, so just a few photo's-

the parts.jpg

slug in the wheel.jpg

Graham Meek23/08/2020 20:49:25
253 forum posts
184 photos

Nigel B,

Thank you for the additional information, I welcome any information on the FB2 and its clones. I have learnt quite a few things from your input and also revived my memory on the other clones.

Joe,

Thanks for the photographs and the explanation on the "Rattle Damper". I seem to recall in my distant past hearing about this device before, but I cannot recall in what context it was being used. I don't think it was to do with stepper motors.

Regards

Gray,

Bazyle23/08/2020 22:54:33
avatar
5391 forum posts
206 photos

Thanks both for such detailed responses to my question. Such extensive information perhaps may get nto the Lathes site.

Joseph Noci 128/08/2020 20:39:50
738 forum posts
940 photos
Posted by Graham Meek on 23/08/2020 20:49:25:

Nigel B,

Thank you for the additional information, I welcome any information on the FB2 and its clones. I have learnt quite a few things from your input and also revived my memory on the other clones.

To add to the variation of FB2's and clones -

I have a FB2 head assembly clone - purchased maybe 15 years ago, that I used as an 'add on' to a horizontal mill.

It looks like a real FB2, but with the switch assy on the motor - see pics. The quill is good, no measurable runout on the inside of the taper. However, the gearbox differs a lot - no fiber gears, and rather noisy. Also the gear mesh is not great. Compared to the FB2 gear set, the gears are all narrower - by about 20%, and the teeth do not mate to proper depth - as though the gear diameters are under size. It works fine, but the noise is quite irritating!

ch_fb2-1.jpg

ch_fb2-2.jpg

ch_fb2-3.jpg

 

edit - correct syntax..

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 28/08/2020 20:40:58

Graham Meek29/08/2020 11:35:24
253 forum posts
184 photos

Hi Joe,

That is the colours of the machine which I cannot remember the name of. They did a range of machines all based on the Emco products starting with a U3 copy, but were only about for a few years in the UK. I seem to recall they were sold in the USA.

I also seem to recall Chester UK supplying a copy with a bright aluminium speed plate, as well as aluminium speed change levers.

I think the noise levels of the FB2 were the reason Emco stopped production. The Oil recommended for my 1996 machine is a 68 hydraulic oil, where as before the oil had been 32 viscosity. The heavier oil maybe being used to quieten the noise level.

Regards

Gray,

Graham Meek15/09/2020 15:22:12
253 forum posts
184 photos

A recent inspection of the internals of the Milling Head gearbox showed the teeth on one side of the Sliding Gear showing signs of distress.

Knowing the Gasket or Seal 3 was getting a little ropey on my machine I decided to order one of these along with the replacement gear. Unfortunately since I looked the last time these seals are no longer made. However an email to EMCO in Austria, provided a drawing of the Seal 3.

Cutting gaskets by hand has never been my strong point. To make things easier for me I decided to make a drawing of the Seal so that I could use the same hole cutter used for the bolt holes, to also cut all the intersections. As a hand cut gasket I was pleased with the results. It was just a case of laying a rule as a tangent to each hole and cutting through with a craft knife. Sort of Dot to Dot. The holes at each corner not only make the gasket stronger, but take away the awkward niggle of not having cut into the corner enough with the craft knife.

Making the Silver steel cutter and the gaskets took about just over an hour.

Two gaskets can be had out of one A4 sheet of gasket material, so I took the opportunity to make two of them. The second is inside the machine cupboard door, taped to the door in a plastic bag just in case the next owner needs it.

fig seal 3.jpg

I think the photograph above illustrates the technique used. If there is sufficient interest for this drawing I will make it available as a PDF, with Neil's blessing and help.

Regards

Gray,

Edited By Graham Meek on 15/09/2020 15:24:51

Marcel Bernards24/09/2020 09:44:43
1 forum posts
Posted by Graham Meek on 23/07/2020 16:52:27:

The only Achilles heel with the FB2 from what I have read about is the Tufnol Gear (Gear 47 in the parts List), which some people have had some teeth stripped off.

fb2 tufnol input gear .jpg

I have seen these gears up for auction with the asking price double what a new spare part costs. As many of the parts are no longer being made by the factory. It is just a matter of time before these too will no longer be available. The last time I took the gearbox apart I took the measurements of the gear and have made a drawing.

It is interesting to note that the gear is a DP, and not a Module form. Having originated in Austria I did assume the latter, until the sums just did not add up for a 45 Tooth Helical gear.

One of the reasons I think these gears fail is due to owners using the lowest gear to lock the spindle to remove any Morse tooling. If one tries to turn the spindle backwards by hand in the lower range there is a feeling that something is binding, just prior to the gearbox locking up. I think it is the Tufnol gear crowding the smaller steel motor pinion.

Removing a stubborn Morse taper using this method is going to put things under stress at one point on the Tufnol gear. Unlike when the machine is running and several of the teeth are sharing the load.

To make the changing of tooling much easier and to remove any risk of premature breakage. I designed and fitted the spindle lock below. This makes locking the spindle dead easy and with no risk of damage to any part of the gearbox.

fig1 positon of ball handle when un-locked.jpg

fig2  ball handle shown in locked position.jpg

Over the coming months I hope to try cutting a new 45T gear by simply gashing at 8 degrees. It will not be a true helix but given the gear is 12 mm wide and the Lead is well over a metre, I don't think it will matter. It is certainly worth a try and if it works I shall have a spare to hand.

Regards

Gray,

I just have a question about gear 47 (EMCO part number E3A015000).

I had an accident on my Huvema Fv320-T , which is a FB 2 clone machine. Broken gear teeths ....

The former owner made a replacement of aluminum but is is noisy as hell and not very well machined. So I ordered one at **LINK**.

Inspecting the gears I counted 47 teeths instead of 45, so whats going on here exactly?. My brother has the same machine as I have and his one is also a 47 teeths gear. it is 20DP/Module 1.25 and about 60mm diameter.

Graham Meek24/09/2020 12:28:27
253 forum posts
184 photos

Hello Marcel,

I am not familiar with the make of your machine. I have seen advertised non-Emco replacement gears of both 45 teeth and 47 teeth from the same supplier. The price was eye watering and dearer than a genuine Emco.

I was bemused with the title of the gear in the Parts Handbook as being Gear 47. The last time I had my machine apart I did count the number of teeth on my Tufnol gear, and it is 45 teeth. The Outside diameter being 60,2 mm. I have also just counted around the not very good image on Pro-Machine Tools web-site and I make that 45 to 46T, but not 47T.

I did wonder in the mix of these machines if Emco used a higher number of teeth on those machines fitted with 60 cycle , Hz, motors. However having just worked through the increase in rotational speed of the 60 Hz motor. The speed advisory plate for these machines comes out as one would expect, using the same gearing as a 50 Hz motor.

The only other reasonable explanation is that it was originally 47T, but due to breakages the tooth count was reduced to 45T thereby producing a stronger gear. It would be interesting to know if a 45T will run in a 47T machine, as this would prove it.

Thus I too am at a loss as to why these gears are different. If anyone has the real reason for this conundrum I would be glad to hear it. I do not like sending anyone off on a wild goose chase.

Regards

Gray,

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