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Perfecto 5 hand shaper

Tool crank handle dimensions

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ega20/06/2020 09:01:12
1716 forum posts
150 photos

NDIY:

Did you mean the first photo in the Wiki? Hard to be sure but it was not clear to me that the tool point was immediately below the pivot point.

A further "point" is that on my machine, at least, the tool slide is itself pivoted on a small spigot in the plane of the ram and other wise retained only by the bolt in the arcuate slot; reversing the thrust of the cut would be undesirable and possibly even break the casting.

John Hinkley20/06/2020 10:13:56
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882 forum posts
293 photos

To respond to the above points:

NDIY - I appreciate that the force required will probably preclude the "reverse cut" method. I was merely proposing that as a possible solution. Like I said, my machine is powered so that I don't over-exert my ancient limbs!

roy entwisle - I had to go back and find Stefan's video here to remind myself that I wasn't dreaming it. He appears to be using a modified clapper box so that the tool cuts on the backstroke.  Compare this to his earlier "first cuts" video where the clapper box/tool relationship is conventionally arranged.

ega - see the video referred to above. The modified clapper box would seem to have the tool cutting edge nearly, if not exactly, below the pivot. I agree that the Perfecto would most likely be adversely affected by altering the cutting direction for the reasons you stated.

John

 

Edited By John Hinkley on 20/06/2020 10:15:11

Edited By John Hinkley on 20/06/2020 10:15:41

Edited By John Hinkley on 20/06/2020 10:16:27

ega20/06/2020 11:08:38
1716 forum posts
150 photos

John Hinkley:

Thanks for the link to Stefan G's video. I think that on that very nice shaper of his he has simply locked the clapper box, a facility which Duplex refer to in their book but which is not available as standard on the Perfecto.

On our machine it might well be possible to extend the 1" square section block that holds the tool bit so as to project below the tool slide and to hold an alternative tool bit on the back of this which would bring it behind the pivot point.

Edited By ega on 20/06/2020 11:09:12

Howard Lewis20/06/2020 12:32:25
3289 forum posts
2 photos

At least your dials are graduated. The dials on my Adept No.2 had to be graduated. The 10 tpi cross feed was easy, 100 divisions. The 16 tpi downfeed looks odd with 62 equally spaced divisions, and then one half size one.

I can see the logic of wishing to cut on the backstroke, since the cutting forces operate against a much greater mass,

But with the conventional clapper box, the tool can lift rather than trying to cut.

Does it matter much if the cutting edge is forward of the clapper box pivot point, as long as everything does not flex noticeably? The objective is to push the tool through the work to cut material.

It can be argued that having the cutting edge forward of the pivot increases the leverage, so decreasing the force required to lift the tool and its holder on the backstroke.

Howard

Roderick Jenkins20/06/2020 13:20:23
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1887 forum posts
481 photos

When using my Perfecto to slot a keyway in a gear I have to cut on the backstroke otherwise there is a tendency to dig in. I have added a screw with a tapered end that locks the clapper shut:

shaper slotting.jpg

Stay well,

Rod

not done it yet20/06/2020 13:29:28
4662 forum posts
16 photos
Posted by ega on 20/06/2020 09:01:12:

NDIY:

Did you mean the first photo in the Wiki? Hard to be sure but it was not clear to me that the tool point was immediately below the pivot point.

......

As I wrote in my previous post on this - I am not to sure of the ideal position for the cutting tip. I have a comprehensive guide to shaper use somewhere - likely on another tablet - which explains all the nuances of shaper usage.

It is something to do with tendency for potential dig-ins (if anything flexes?). Too far forward and the dig-in would proceed and cause trouble, whereas in the correct position the cut would not be compromised - too far back and the cutter might ‘skate) over the item.

I’m not going to search for the tome unless/until I need to refer to it again for my own handraulic shaping, but it is clear, from that pic, that the cutting edge can be moved further back if necessary.

John Hinkley20/06/2020 13:36:20
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882 forum posts
293 photos

I have made a similar keyway slotting tool for mine based on a design by Stefan Gotteswinter. (This is beginning to sound like hero-worship!) It's like Rod's, utilising a hole in the clapper box drilled by a previous owner, which I tapped and it's dog-point tip locates a hole in the toolholder block. The cutter holder is angled down by 5° :

keyway slotter_2

And, ega, I've had another look at the video. If you slow it down and watch it a couple of frames at a time, you can detect that the tool does tip, albeit only slightly, though I assume that's dependent on the depth of cut. (Watch the securing bolt head as the tool drops off the end of the workpiece on the return stroke.

John

ega20/06/2020 14:18:57
1716 forum posts
150 photos

All very interesting to me as a novice shaper user.

One advantage of the Perfecto for reverse shaping is that unlike full-size shapers the return stroke is not speeded up; and the hand machine has the advantage of being more controllable both as to speed and power.

Rod Jenkins:

I've taken note of your way of locking the the clapper box. Is yours like mine in the way it is attached to the tool slide? (See my post above timed 09:01:12 where I mistakenly referred to "tool slide" when I meant clapper box.)

I will look again at the Stefan G video. Incidentally, I understand that there are some modes of cutting when lifting on the return stroke is not possible and the clapper box has to be locked.

Edited By ega on 20/06/2020 14:20:18

Edited By ega on 20/06/2020 14:21:05

Roderick Jenkins20/06/2020 14:45:20
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1887 forum posts
481 photos
Posted by ega on 20/06/2020 14:18:57:

I've taken note of your way of locking the the clapper box. Is yours like mine in the way it is attached to the tool slide? (See my post above timed 09:01:12 where I mistakenly referred to "tool slide" when I meant clapper box.)

Valid point yes. The pivot pin is fairly large in diameter and a good fit in its hole so that takes much of the stress but a screw fastening the clapper box to the slide under the clapper would be beneficial for working in reverse mode.

Cheers,

Rod

not done it yet20/06/2020 16:14:44
4662 forum posts
16 photos

I remove the clapper box and fit a solid piece into which is threaded a solid bar (with cutter) for cutting Internal keyways. Just have to progress very slowly. Makes no odds which way I cut, I think, but still pulling, not pushing, the handle is better as the machine was designed that way.

John Olsen20/06/2020 16:33:37
1043 forum posts
91 photos
1 articles

A few points relating to some of the posts above:

Assuming the clapper box pivot does not have too much slack, the only flex we need to worry about is the projecting part of the tool. In theory, when this bends with the cutting load, it can tend to make the cut deeper. In practice, this does not seem to be a big problem. Keeping your tools really sharp will greatly reduce the cutting load, which will also reduce the effort needed on a manual shaper. I have played with tool holders that put the cutting edge about level with the clamping face of the clapper box, but it does not seem to make a great deal of difference. I've also got a pair of toolholders that were made for a lathe with one of my shapers, they have built in rake, which is all wrong for a shaper but actually works fine in practice.

I have used a goose necked tool, my first shaper came with one, since sadly broken when it fell on the floor. Again, it did not seem to give better results than a conventional straight tool, and actually the geometry would seem to permit more flex in the digging in direction.

If you are cutting on the return stroke with a power shaper, you should ideally reverse the direction of the motor. If it is not easy to do, I would not worry too much, especially if the stroke is short.

There are possible cuts where you might need to lock the clapper box, although mostly you can get the clearance by angling the clapper box. For instance, when cutting a dovetail, the downslide will be angled to the angle of the dovetail, and the clapper box should then be angled a little more, so that when the tool moves it comes away from the overhung face being cut.

regards

John

ega20/06/2020 17:31:50
1716 forum posts
150 photos

Yet more helpful advice and information - thank you!

I mentioned a book by "Duplex" but may have been only half right. For general interest, here is a brief extract from Ian Bradley's "Shaping Machine and Lathe Tools":

shaper1.jpg

shaper2.jpg

The tool in Fig 50 was apparently made from one end of a cycle crank, a feat which I shall not be attempting although I like NDIY's suggestion of a custom tool holder.

Brian Oldford20/06/2020 19:17:36
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661 forum posts
15 photos

Looking at those lovely swan-neck tools got me thinking.

Wouldn't it be possible to make a tool that relieves the cut if the bend of the swan-neck moved the cutting edge further back?

John Olsen21/06/2020 14:39:54
1043 forum posts
91 photos
1 articles

That is supposed to be the idea of a swan neck, however there is no guarantee that it will bend in the direction desired. If the tip has too much rake it will try to pull the tool into the job, while if it has too little it will be pushed out. I've found that the best result come from everything being as rigid as possible and the tool as sharp as possible. That keeps the cutting forces low. Flexible things like goose necks will bend in whatever direction the forces pushes them.

The cycle crank type is not too hard to make, the main point being to find a steel crank, since they are mostly alloy these days. The rest is mostly si9mple turning, apart from the square hole for the tool bit, and you could use round hss for that. It is actually a fairly close copy of a commercial type, I have one for my largest shaper, made by jones and Shipman. (the tool, not the shaper.) It lets you adjust the angle of the toolbit, which can be handy, but the bit has to be quite long to be usable. There are also conventional jones and Shipman type tool holders for shapers. The difference from the lathe ones is that there is no built in rake. I have one, but it is too big for any of my shapers, it needs about a 24 inch shaper. My biggest one is 18 inch.

John

Mark Knight 330/06/2020 16:11:02
7 forum posts
10 photos

Finally got the handle finished, thanks again John for the drawing, I’m really pleased with the end result

6aa8ced2-c031-4116-88df-898a36b968b3.jpeg

I even put the shaper to good use in order to produce accurate flats on the spheres.

c3cff087-e0f9-4a4d-ab85-cce7b04a6242.jpeg

John Hinkley30/06/2020 16:54:21
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882 forum posts
293 photos

Nice looking handle, Mark. Glad it turned out so well for you.

John

Roderick Jenkins30/06/2020 19:14:16
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1887 forum posts
481 photos

Excellent, much nicer than the original would have been yes

Rod

Mark Knight 330/06/2020 21:40:48
7 forum posts
10 photos

Thanks Rod and also thanks for the handle drawings you posted a few days ago.

Now would you believe it, a couple of hours after finishing my new handle, I was looking through one of my Dad’s boxes of bits and this was in there!!!!!

3cfff114-2325-4463-9a9c-eb5676231958.jpeg

I managed to get the broken stud out and put it on the shaper.

ee9977a5-7aa3-4ed2-8a2f-b4bc592292da.jpeg

Much as I love my new one, I value originality more. This is now exactly as I remember using it about 40 years ago in my grandad’s workshop. Oh well, I enjoyed the challenge of making the new one!

ega30/06/2020 22:37:37
1716 forum posts
150 photos

Congratulations from me, too!

Perhaps I will now find my original handle.

ega30/06/2020 22:37:57
1716 forum posts
150 photos

Congratulations from me, too!

Perhaps I will now find my original handle.

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