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A polite note to beginners from ARC

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Bandersnatch20/05/2020 18:31:43
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Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 17:59:09:
Posted by Bandersnatch on 20/05/2020 17:22:41:
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 14:42:35:

Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this.

"extra" That's an interesting word. Does that mean he does get commission from Arc in other situations?

Coming from a person who once suggested to me 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen', I cant tell if your post is meant to be a joke or sarcasm teeth 2...



Neither one Ketan - I honestly don't see why you would assume that.

Simply that the conjunction of "extra" with "commission" suggests, to me, that there is a level of commission which is not "extra" and I was curious.

Maybe curious (or picky) would be a better word than joke or sarcasm.

Wow! you have a long memorysmiley

Neil Wyatt20/05/2020 18:31:46
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In the interest of complete disclosure, Ketan has bought me a baked potato and a pint a couple of times

Incidentally, if I'd been paid for the lathework series at our standard rate it would have brought me a lot more than the value of the SC4!

We do review stuff from other sellers - not as much comes forward as you might expect. I remember spending months trying to find a reviewer for a large lathe, but I couldn't find someone willing to accommodate such a large machine for a few months as it was so expensive it had to go back. I've also (twice) set up reviews asked for by a supplier who then found out the items were selling well anyway and decided not to bother. Very frustrating for the reviewer and makes me look a bit useless too...

We also get contributions that cross the line between review and articles. These are often the most useful for readers.

Hopefully it's obvious when we are just running a 'new product' announcement from a supplier and when someone has actually tried out the product. I try and edit out the worst of the hyperbole "The Quadgop 4000 will transform your workshop!".

I've had a few items I or a reviewer couldn't get to come up to scratch despite the suppliers help. They never got written up.

Neil

Stuart Bridger20/05/2020 18:37:55
502 forum posts
28 photos

Great post from Ketan, I agree with his sentiments and would like to add the following comments

1) This forum is free at point of use, but does have a cost that is on the publishers of ME/MEW which is ultimately financed by subscribers and advertisers like ARC. I do subscribe to both (paper only at the moment, but looking to change). Another hobby of mine have resorted o a members only forum, so you need to pay to play. I wouldn't like this to go that way though.

2) The internet/forums/social media has turned many into very lazy habits. The search button is an anathema to many, They would rather post a question than search for an answer. Just look at the number of VFD questions posted for example, 99% of which would find an answer in previous posts. This is certainly not limited to this forum and hobby. I encounter it in my day job on a daily basis.

3) I very much value the band of UK based suppliers supporting our hobby and always buy from them as a preference. You do get what you pay for. If w had to pay industrial prices for machines and tooling we would be much worse off. Our hobby would not exist in its current form without the support of these guys. We also a very lucky to have the suppliers actively supporting the community via this forum. We should very much value their input, They don't have to do it, it is "value add" and the vast majority here do support it.

4) I do still count myself as beginner, on my second model, relearning skills long forgotten from my apprenticeship 40 years ago, which I am very lucky to have had. I value this forum and am happy to give feedback and help to other where I can in a positive manner. Unfortunately there are always a minority of "armchair warriors" who just relish trolling.

In summary we need to embrace our new starters, but they need to help themselves, There is no such thing as a free lunch. Do you your research and read up on the basics and please use that search function!

Finally. I still miss the wit, down to earth posts and great support from the late great JS. He will never be forgotten.

Mick B120/05/2020 18:53:56
1801 forum posts
91 photos

Wow. What sort of a spat have I missed to give rise to this? laugh

There was a time when I first joined that certain postings were leading me to wonder whether the forum was basically an advertising channel, but that impression soon faded with the useful advice I was getting when I put questions properly, and found I could sometimes contribute opinions too.

I got excellent and wide-ranging advice from Ketan when I bought a micro-lathe I needed when moving house, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree on other points.

So I'd reckon everybody oughta lighten up - this stuff is time-consuming to read and difficult to contribute to when you're aware that hackles've been rising..

Ketan Swali20/05/2020 19:15:45
1331 forum posts
106 photos
Posted by Bandersnatch on 20/05/2020 18:31:43:
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 17:59:09:
Posted by Bandersnatch on 20/05/2020 17:22:41:
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 14:42:35:

Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this.

"extra" That's an interesting word. Does that mean he does get commission from Arc in other situations?

Coming from a person who once suggested to me 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen', I cant tell if your post is meant to be a joke or sarcasm teeth 2...



Neither one Ketan - I honestly don't see why you would assume that.

Simply that the conjunction of "extra" with "commission" suggests, to me, that there is a level of commission which is not "extra" and I was curious.

Maybe curious (or picky) would be a better word than joke or sarcasm.

Wow! you have a long memorysmiley

Thanks Bandersnatch. The only reason I remembered that was because it was a reality check for me at that time, for how the market was changing. smiley

Nicholas Farr20/05/2020 19:22:40
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2550 forum posts
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Hi, well spoken Ketan. I also think that both Neil Wyatt and JasonB should be appreciated more than they seem to be, I've learnt a lot of things on here by many people and although I've been in engineering all my working life, you never know everything, even in your own subject there will be aspects that you haven't come across. I try to help as many people that I can and I have been wrong a time or two, but will hold my hand up when something wrong is pointed out to me or I realise I've made a mistake, every day is a school day.

Regards Nick.

Ketan Swali20/05/2020 19:22:59
1331 forum posts
106 photos
Posted by Mick B1 on 20/05/2020 18:53:56:

Wow. What sort of a spat have I missed to give rise to this? laugh

No spat at all Mick. It’s all good smiley

Ketan at ARC.

larry phelan 120/05/2020 19:24:37
903 forum posts
17 photos

You cannot please everyone all the time.

You cannot please some people any time, no matter what you do.

So, I say, don't worry about it, just do your best, most of us will be thankful for it.cheeky

Neil Wyatt20/05/2020 20:53:41
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I should also say that being foirum admin comes with being Ed of MEW so I'm not really a volunteer, although I spend vastly more time on here than I'm expected to!

It's Jason who really puts in the beyond the call of duty effort.

Neil

Iain Downs20/05/2020 21:33:41
730 forum posts
646 photos

My first interaction with Ketan was when I was trying to rune up my CMD10 - bought from Machine Mart. He very kindly asked me to call him to explain how to do this and spent the best part of an hour on the phone and I hadn't even bought anything from him!

Since then I seem to have spent a lot of money, though not bought any main machines. I echo the comments made here and appreciate the technical tips that you can find from him in the forum.

Cheers, Ketan! Long may you help us!

Iain

Dr_GMJN20/05/2020 22:19:13
711 forum posts

I think I've been a forum member for about a week now, and the advice has been overwhelmingly helpful and friendly, especially from Jason and Ron, although there are many others.

In that time I've also had more experience of ARC (IIRC the first things I bought from ARC were back in 2007, but since then I've not got to use my lathe much in anger). The experience has been very positive, with Ketan and his colleague phoning me to talk through some checks with my SX2P.

I think that other beginners reading this would be well advised to outline their issue in as much detail as possible (with photos if appropriate), and if you've made any daft errors (as I have) - just admit it, address it, and move on.

I would say that regarding doing searches and reading - that is fine, but sometimes if you are a beginner, you're looking for confirmation that you've understood something, or that it's relevant to your issue. There are many subtleties in this game, as well as the more obvious stuff.

One of my other pastimes is building plastic scale model aircraft and cars, and ships in paper - I write build articles and reviews for a magazine, and contribute to a few forums. There has definitely been a sharp increase in beginners in scale modelling, and also RC cars. I think lockdown has had a positive effect at least in terms of people looking for a creative outlet, which has to be a good thing that should be encouraged.

Re. magazines and articles for beginners; this thread reminded me I got this ME/MEW book (Autumn 2010) which is pretty good. Maybe there are more recent ones, or if not, perhaps now would be a good time to revive them?

Thanks!

Dr_GMJN20/05/2020 22:31:05
711 forum posts
Posted by Sakura on 20/05/2020 18:13:15:

I am a member of several technical forums. The members generally fall into similar types:

The very experienced in the subject who freely shares his hard earned experience

The know-it-all who does generally know what he's talking about but in a very condescending way to other lesser mortals

The know-it-all who won't accept any other point of view

The fairly experienced who wants to expand his knowledge

The beginner who wants to break into the subject but then starts to argue points with those more experienced

The beginner who wants to learn and is grateful for any help.

There are,of course, sub-divisions of all the above. I guess forums are just a reflection of everyday life.

I think many forums are the same - not just technical ones. It can get to be as much about ego as about fact, or helping someone. The thing about engineering is that it seems to be a discipline that's populated by many who for some reason feel inclined, or even entitled, to dispense with social niceties even at the best of times.

CHARLES lipscombe20/05/2020 23:59:16
119 forum posts
8 photos

I think it would be hard to find a more genuine and helpful bloke than Ketan anywhere. In my experience the goods he sells represent good value for money and are carefully chosen to be suitable for our hobby. Obviously many others share this opinion or his business would not have thrived as it has.

Nowadays I usually buy what are obviously ARC items from Ausee here in Australia, simply because that way I avoid horrendous postal charges from the UK. I would be interested to know what the link is between Ausee and ARC.

Re the forum: I am a self-taught machinist and have found a number of postings here which taken together have greatly helped me expand my limited skills. +1 for Larry Phelans comments above, and I hope Ketan draws strength from that

paul rayner21/05/2020 00:01:14
168 forum posts
46 photos

whats up with you all, arc is providing this forum and the mags a service and revenue. yes he is getting advertising from it ,but that business. his company I have personally found is second to none, not only Ketan but all his staff will go out of there way to help you even if they point you to one of there competitors and do not benefit form a sale themselves. Jason & Neil may or may not have had freebies, but so what they were used to contribute to the magazine. which before you all start moaning and groaning just think we all started at some time. and any help I think is great for the beginner as you all know it's not a cheap hobby.

How come nobody's having a dig at chesters readers tips where they receive a £30 voucher

as far as I'm concerned Ketan,Neil & Jason keep on doing what you are doing. take no notice of the jealous buggers

Neil Wyatt21/05/2020 00:51:29
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To be fair, Paul I haven't noticed anyone moaning to be honest, the amount of positivity is, frankly, embarrassing!

I accept I'm not perfect (yet) and I know there's a few folks whose backs I've put up over the years, but I do my best and try not to be too defensive in the face of criticism. Many good ideas have come from forum members and other readers.

Neil

Hopper21/05/2020 01:08:47
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5069 forum posts
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One thing we have to remember is the experts tell us about 70 per cent of human communication is non-verbal. So forums are doomed to being full of misunderstandings and miscues in the absence of the body language, facial expressions, tone of voice etc that would accompany what is written if it were a face to face coversation.

So it all has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Bandersnatch21/05/2020 01:27:14
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It would be nice if people would take others' posts at face value more, rather than colouring them with their own prejudices.

(On that score one could take a leaf out of Ketan's book).

Edited By Bandersnatch on 21/05/2020 01:27:31

Hopper21/05/2020 04:51:11
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Posted by Bandersnatch on 21/05/2020 01:27:14:

It would be nice if people would take others' posts at face value more, rather than colouring them with their own prejudices.

(On that score one could take a leaf out of Ketan's book).

Edited By Bandersnatch on 21/05/2020 01:27:31

Unfortunately that's how reading works. The reader brings a whole different set of assumptions to the text from the writer. There really is no set face value. Two people read War and Peace, one will say its about war. The other about peace. And a third will say its about love. And all of them probably at variance with what the author intended. Language is a highly imperfect means of conveying information, let alone complex ideas.

Oh spit! Is my arts degree showing again? laugh

jimmy b21/05/2020 04:51:17
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I have been a customer of ARC for 11 years and spent a fair bit (having looked my previous order page, quite a bit!) on their products. I have been very happy overall.

I would say that around 60% of my spend is with them, the rest split between Ebay (China sales) and other UK suppliers. I know that if I buy from China, I take a chance and have a wait of between a week and 2 months. My choice.

I have nothing but praise for ARC and recommend them above anyone else (at least one person has bought a machine etc on my recommendation). I have been a "proper" engineer for 37 years and do this at work on £400,000+ machines and in my shed on machines costing 1% of that for fun. When I have ever asked specific questions of ARC they have been knowledgeable and honest.

Long may they continue!

My only criticism is that the discount codes usually appear after a large order has gone in..................

Jim

Daniel21/05/2020 07:16:05
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333 forum posts
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Posted by Hopper on 21/05/2020 04:51:11:
Posted by Bandersnatch on 21/05/2020 01:27:14:

It would be nice if people would take others' posts at face value more, rather than colouring them with their own prejudices.

(On that score one could take a leaf out of Ketan's book).

Edited By Bandersnatch on 21/05/2020 01:27:31

Unfortunately that's how reading works. The reader brings a whole different set of assumptions to the text from the writer. There really is no set face value. Two people read War and Peace, one will say its about war. The other about peace. And a third will say its about love. And all of them probably at variance with what the author intended. Language is a highly imperfect means of conveying information, let alone complex ideas.

Oh spit! Is my arts degree showing again? laugh

Very well put Hopper.

Text, purely on it's own, is extremely vulnerable to mis-interpretation.

Add to that already delicate situation the occasional oddball whose

only desire is to be offended, or upset, the result should be hardly

surprising. I'm sure we all know some people, in the physical world,

where we feel we are perpetually walking on eggshells.

In fact, there was one such example yesterday evening, on this very

forum.

I, too, am an occasional customer of ARC. And a happy one, at that.

I have noticed, in life, that the very best sales people aren't really

sales people at all. They tend to be people who are genuinely

passionate about what they represent. They share that passion, and

any actual sales seem almost to be a bonus, rather than the original

objective.

Sort of the reverse of "anyone expressing the desire to become a

politician, should be automatically barred from being one".

My own opinion, is that, while Ketan's presence on this forum may

have a direct relationship with his company, he is obviously

passionate about tools (as am I), and quite probably what can be

achieved with them.

The resulting high profile and regard that he enjoys on this forum has

been won through genuine, honest effort and, in my humble opinion,

entirely merited.

I'm also quite confident that my post will have upset someone, somewhere.

But, in view of the many thousands that visit this forum, one or two are not

going to interrupt my sleep pattern.

ATB,

Daniel

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