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A polite note to beginners from ARC

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Ketan Swali20/05/2020 14:42:35
1314 forum posts
105 photos

During lock-down, we have seen an increase in number of beginners entering the hobby.

In many ways, this is a good thing. We see a lot of questions on here relating to set-up/use of new tools, used and new machines.

All these questions are great. There is a lot of enthusiasm with beginners, but the knowledge is limited, because of lack of previous hands-on experience. Sometimes this results in questions over fitness of purpose, especially resulting from bargains obtained through auction sites. There is nothing wrong with that. We - the collective - are all here to help, even if one members opinion is different from anothers.

Keeping this in mind, ARC commissioned a beginners series in Model Engineers Workshop, relation to using a modern day lathe or mill. These series dealt with how to use the respective machines and tools associated with them.

This series started with issue 260 onwards for using a lathe - by Neil Wyatt, and 261 onwards for using a mill - by Jason Ballamy.

Judging by the questions we see on the forum, as well as over the phone and emails, can I please suggest and encourage beginners to subscribe to the digital version of the magazine?... which in turn will give beginners access to the back issues.

The machines and related tools were given to Neil and Jason, precisely to write the series for beginners to address many of the questions which are being asked so regularly now.... more so during lock-down.

If you do not have time to read, or if you don't want to, that is up to you. Under such circumstances, please be considerate and respectful of the time the collective on this forum spend to help the beginners.

Many on here have years of experience. I would particularly like to draw attention to regular references to ARC products which Neil and Jason in particular make. The reason why they make reference to ARC products is because they have used them. Many of the YouTube videos to which Jason refers are directly linked to the beginners series which he wrote. Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this. He is trying to show the process to a beginner, and yes this promotes sales for ARC. It does not mean that the beginner should only purchase ARC products.

Both Neil and Jason along with others give their time for free on this forum. ARCs contributed to the hobby by establishing a beginners series on the subjects in question. We paid Neil and Jason by giving them the products. In real terms, if I had to pay for the series in terms of time invested by Neil and Jason, instead of paying them by product, it would have cost ARC a lot more.

I am aware that this 'investment of helping people' has gone down like a lead balloon with a minority of members on this forum, which is a wrong and sad interpretation. Two members (not Neil or Jason) have PM'd me notifying me of two other members of this forum who say that Neil and Jason are 'very palley with ARC' because they get things for free (I have used polite language to what was actually said). This is the wrong interpretation.

Both have been imparting their knowledge freely on this forum, along with others, long before the two members chose to make the comments they did, and long before ARC commissioned the series for beginners. The reasons why ARC chose Neil and Jason for the series is precisely because of their knowledge and ability to write articles which a beginner can understand.

Both Neil and Jason pay for what they want from ARC.

Neil and Jason only get 'things for free', if ARC wants them to test the products and give a report. Again, 'for free' is not really, considering the time and effort they have to put in to carry out the tests, which ultimately benefit the end user. I have given products in the same way to other users to test. Many are on this forum, and they choose not to write on here, or there is an agreement between the tester and ARC for the project to remain confidential.

Before anyone says it,...

YES ARC - i.e. me have a bee in my bonnet about certain auction sites, especially when we know the quality of certain products being promoted on there, combination of good, bad and ugly. Separate from the two members in question, I also think it wrong of two other people (one of who is still a member on this forum), to degrade a the memory of the late John Stevenson under comments on a product which was on You Tube promoting a product sold on Banggood - which i personally find disgusting.. after a person has passed away, just because they had a grievance with him. JS was another person who helped us, and it is a shame that those to people were reluctant to say things to his face when he was alive.

YES, such auction sites selling products direct from China eat into ALL U.K. based businesses. It is a fact of life we live with. However, if new comers wish to make comparisons, we kindly request you to be careful and avoid generalising, especially if you have limited knowledge.

All U.K. sellers work hard to service the end user and to survive.. in any climate, and no, we - as in most reputable U.K. sellers are not out to diddle anyone.

If you got a good or bad bargain off an auction site, that is well and good. But please be respectful too of the knowledge being imparted on this forum, and remember to thank the collective - forum community who provided you the assistance.

I have often seen long threads where many have helped, without any expectation of thanks, and then suddenly the receiver of the knowledge comes back in on another thread giving the impression that 'he knows everything' on a subject, and is suddenly in expert.

Ketan at ARC.

John Baron20/05/2020 14:51:51
avatar
339 forum posts
142 photos
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 14:42:35:

During lock-down, we have seen an increase in number of beginners entering the hobby.

All these questions are great. There is a lot of enthusiasm with beginners, but the knowledge is limited, because of lack of previous hands-on experience. Sometimes this results in questions over fitness of purpose, especially resulting from bargains obtained through auction sites. There is nothing wrong with that. We - the collective - are all here to help, even if one members opinion is different from anothers.

Keeping this in mind, ARC commissioned a beginners series in Model Engineers Workshop, relation to using a modern day lathe or mill. These series dealt with how to use the respective machines and tools associated with them.

This series started with issue 260 onwards for using a lathe - by Neil Wyatt, and 261 onwards for using a mill - by Jason Ballamy.

Judging by the questions we see on the forum, as well as over the phone and emails, can I please suggest and encourage beginners to subscribe to the digital version of the magazine?... which in turn will give beginners access to the back issues.

The machines and related tools were given to Neil and Jason, precisely to write the series for beginners to address many of the questions which are being asked so regularly now.... more so during lock-down.

If you do not have time to read, or if you don't want to, that is up to you. Under such circumstances, please be considerate and respectful of the time the collective on this forum spend to help the beginners.

Many on here have years of experience. I would particularly like to draw attention to regular references to ARC products which Neil and Jason in particular make. The reason why they make reference to ARC products is because they have used them. Many of the YouTube videos to which Jason refers are directly linked to the beginners series which he wrote. Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this. He is trying to show the process to a beginner, and yes this promotes sales for ARC. It does not mean that the beginner should only purchase ARC products.

Both Neil and Jason along with others give their time for free on this forum. ARCs contributed to the hobby by establishing a beginners series on the subjects in question. We paid Neil and Jason by giving them the products. In real terms, if I had to pay for the series in terms of time invested by Neil and Jason, instead of paying them by product, it would have cost ARC a lot more.

I am aware that this 'investment of helping people' has gone down like a lead balloon with a minority of members on this forum, which is a wrong and sad interpretation. Two members (not Neil or Jason) have PM'd me notifying me of two other members of this forum who say that Neil and Jason are 'very palley with ARC' because they get things for free (I have used polite language to what was actually said). This is the wrong interpretation.

Both have been imparting their knowledge freely on this forum, along with others, long before the two members chose to make the comments they did, and long before ARC commissioned the series for beginners. The reasons why ARC chose Neil and Jason for the series is precisely because of their knowledge and ability to write articles which a beginner can understand.

Both Neil and Jason pay for what they want from ARC.

Neil and Jason only get 'things for free', if ARC wants them to test the products and give a report. Again, 'for free' is not really, considering the time and effort they have to put in to carry out the tests, which ultimately benefit the end user. I have given products in the same way to other users to test. Many are on this forum, and they choose not to write on here, or there is an agreement between the tester and ARC for the project to remain confidential.

Before anyone says it,...

YES ARC - i.e. me have a bee in my bonnet about certain auction sites, especially when we know the quality of certain products being promoted on there, combination of good, bad and ugly. Separate from the two members in question, I also think it wrong of two other people (one of who is still a member on this forum), to degrade a the memory of the late John Stevenson under comments on a product which was on You Tube promoting a product sold on Banggood - which i personally find disgusting.. after a person has passed away, just because they had a grievance with him. JS was another person who helped us, and it is a shame that those to people were reluctant to say things to his face when he was alive.

YES, such auction sites selling products direct from China eat into ALL U.K. based businesses. It is a fact of life we live with. However, if new comers wish to make comparisons, we kindly request you to be careful and avoid generalising, especially if you have limited knowledge.

All U.K. sellers work hard to service the end user and to survive.. in any climate, and no, we - as in most reputable U.K. sellers are not out to diddle anyone.

If you got a good or bad bargain off an auction site, that is well and good. But please be respectful too of the knowledge being imparted on this forum, and remember to thank the collective - forum community who provided you the assistance.

I have often seen long threads where many have helped, without any expectation of thanks, and then suddenly the receiver of the knowledge comes back in on another thread giving the impression that 'he knows everything' on a subject, and is suddenly in expert.

Ketan at ARC.

+1

Andrew Tinsley20/05/2020 15:00:54
1213 forum posts

Hello Ketan,

I appreciate your contributions to the forum immensely, and am sad that some members seem to bear a grudge towards ARC. and to the late Mr Stevenson. I find this truly reprehensible.

You have spent some time on the phone explaining a point to me and have very generously given me two tools which I think you had withdrawn from sale because of potential errors due to misuse. All this for relatively small beer purchases that I have made.

I agree about beginners needing to read the series done by Jason and Neil. Perhaps the two authors could cash in and help beginners by publishing both series in booklet form?

Regards,

Andrew.

KWIL20/05/2020 15:01:35
3322 forum posts
63 photos

+1.

I would also say, I have known Ketan for many many years, you will not meet a more genuine trader and advisor. By the way, like others, I am a satisfied purchaser as well.

Plasma20/05/2020 15:13:19
443 forum posts
1 photos

ARC are a great set up, I've been buying tools from them for many years and have never been disappointed with my purchases or the service received.

It's such a shame that shows became too much of a bind to attend with stock as it was always good to buy direct and have a chat with the staff.

I hope there will be a lot of similar positive responses to Ketans post to counteract the few negative nigels out there.

Best regards mick

Robert Butler20/05/2020 15:22:01
165 forum posts
6 photos

+ 1 Robert Butler

Martin Kyte20/05/2020 15:31:16
avatar
2130 forum posts
37 photos

Now, personally, the way I see it if anyone gives a machine to widely read commentators then they must have a deal of confidence in the kit otherwise it's going to backfire spectacularly. Similarly if said commentators are not transparently honest they are going to get caught out very quickly.

I don't have a problem with anyone who is trying to help people get stuff done.

regards Martin.

Tony Pratt 120/05/2020 15:31:18
1271 forum posts
5 photos

I was a beginner 50 years ago & have just finished my career in Toolmaking & precision machining so have a good idea what is involved. I find Arc to be an excellent supplier of decent tools at a decent price, one niggle I had was dealt with promptly, I actually placed an order last week which turned up 2 days later, bloody brilliant service!

Tony

Roderick Jenkins20/05/2020 15:46:48
avatar
1972 forum posts
510 photos

A few years ago I sent an e- mail to ARC enquiring about supply of a pair of imperial bearings for my Sharp milling machine. I've never met the man but Ketan rang me up and gave me an half hour tutorial on the replacement and pre load of spindle bearings. He then told me that he could probably get them for me but I would be much better off getting them from Simply Bearings!

Nothing I've ever heard or read suggests that Ketan is anything but a friend to the hobby and an all round good egg.

Stay well,

Rod

magpie20/05/2020 15:58:08
avatar
463 forum posts
80 photos

I have been a customer of ArcEuro for many years and never once have I had reason to complain. Some years ago I told Ketan that a particular order was for a group of 'Men in Sheds', knowing just what the movement was all about, Ketan gave us a generous discount on two lathes and some free tooling. I really don't imagine any of his competitors offering the same when it wasn't even asked for. THANKS KETAN, you are a star.

Dek.

Oldiron20/05/2020 16:32:12
561 forum posts
22 photos

+1 on Ketan's post.

regards

JasonB20/05/2020 16:49:45
avatar
Moderator
19135 forum posts
2105 photos
1 articles

I have probably said this elsewhere on the forum over time but seems a good place to repeat it as we do seem to be getting a lot of new members of late.

I probably first started using ARC in about 2006 or 2007 before this forum and several others that I frequent even existed but posted on others such as HMEM and Traction Talk, even then as well as showing my builds I would offer help to others where I could.

Over the years I have added to my tooling and a good percentage of it has come from ARC bought either by myself or a couple of other people as xmas gifts etc to me . A lot of what I post may well be photos taken some time ago as I often prefer to post a photo that illustrates a point rather than just try and explain it as a photo is often a lot easier for others to understand plus it does you have actually done what you are saying so the items I am using at the time will feature in these photos.

I then became involved with this forum right from when it was first formed and was later asked by Diane to help out as a moderator which I do for nothing. I think Diane was the first to ask if I would do a review of a product but it may have been Neil. They said I would get to keep the item and also get paid for what went to print although I said give it to charity as I was getting the item. Some time later I was asked if I would review the EMG sharpener from ARC and then send it on to another member for them to also comment on which I did and a while later after publication was given some discount on an order but did not keep the grinder as they are not a cheap item.

A few years ago the idea of the beginners series was raised and in discussions with Ketan one point I set out was that I wanted to be able to feature things that he may not have sold as it would not be a very complete guide if items were left off, he was happy with this and they can be seen in the series. He also sent me a list of items that he was going to send along with the mill to be used in the article, I went back to him saying that a lot of the items I already had so some were removed, others added and also some items I did have sent as mine may have been slightly older versions and also we had decided to concentrate on R8 as that was felt to be the better option for a beginner, I had MT3. At no time was it mentioned that I would get any of the items to keep.

It was only when the series had ended that I talked to him about getting the mill etc back and that I would like to buy some of the items to add to my own tooling. This was when he said I could keep them so nothing written in the series was swayed by getting freebies. I did get the usual payment that any other author would get from MTM.

Hopefully I'm fairly open about what I use, simple example is in the last few days I have given other sources for milling cutters, inserts and tool holders when I could have just said ARC.

As ketan says so many of the questions and problems come up time and time again, the tool falling out of the collet yesterday being a prime example. Straight away I asked if the collet was fitted correctly, when the wrong reply came back saying it was I then questioned the size of collet being used. Turns out I was correct on both these points, they are both covered in the beginners series. This is why the series was written as it is based on many years of the same sort of things cropping up and being a long term user of these machines I have a good idea of how they work best and not how a time served engineer expects an industrial machine to work.

J

Michael Gilligan20/05/2020 16:59:25
avatar
16644 forum posts
725 photos

Although I have not purchased much from ARC, I am very impressed by Ketan’s commitment to this forum, and to the hobbyist market in general.

The devious mind might consider his contributions ‘clever advertising’ BUT ... Please study them in depth before jumping to such conclusions. His posts are as ‘even-handed’ as one could ever wish to see.

MichaelG.

Jim Butler 120/05/2020 17:00:08
11 forum posts

+1 on what Ketan said.

It is not just model engineering where there are "haters" whose aim in life is to disparage and denigrate the efforts of others, various amateur radio websites suffer from the same malaise.

Why this should be, I do not know. I guess that it all come down to the old saying "There's nowt as queer as folk".

JimB

Martin King 220/05/2020 17:20:41
728 forum posts
279 photos

I have always had sterling service, comment and advice from ARC, mainly from Ian who has been most helpful to a "newbie".

Top Marks !

regards, Martin

Bandersnatch20/05/2020 17:22:41
avatar
1719 forum posts
60 photos
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 14:42:35:

Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this.

"extra" That's an interesting word. Does that mean he does get commission from Arc in other situations?

AdrianR20/05/2020 17:35:54
488 forum posts
25 photos

+1 for Ketan's post.

I know MEW has to make money, but it is such a shame that the two beginners series are not supplied in the Article Reprints. Having a beginners start hear section to the MEW site would also be a great benefit

Adrian.

Ketan Swali20/05/2020 17:59:09
1314 forum posts
105 photos
Posted by Bandersnatch on 20/05/2020 17:22:41:
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/05/2020 14:42:35:

Yes, this shows off the ARC product in question. He does not get extra commission for this.

"extra" That's an interesting word. Does that mean he does get commission from Arc in other situations?

Coming from a person who once suggested to me 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen', I cant tell if your post is meant to be a joke or sarcasm teeth 2...

Either way, the answer is NO. Various people on this forum have PMed Jason, Howard Lewis and others about machines, before purchasing from ARC. No one has received any commission.

Ketan at ARC

Sakura20/05/2020 18:13:15
46 forum posts
1 photos

I am a member of several technical forums. The members generally fall into similar types:

The very experienced in the subject who freely shares his hard earned experience

The know-it-all who does generally know what he's talking about but in a very condescending way to other lesser mortals

The know-it-all who won't accept any other point of view

The fairly experienced who wants to expand his knowledge

The beginner who wants to break into the subject but then starts to argue points with those more experienced

The beginner who wants to learn and is grateful for any help.

There are,of course, sub-divisions of all the above. I guess forums are just a reflection of everyday life.

Steviegtr20/05/2020 18:19:54
avatar
1652 forum posts
197 photos

I am speaking from under the paving stones here. Just in case a brick comes my way.

I have not been a member for very long. I have had a few differences with Ketan. Only on a misunderstood situation some time back. But I have to say that even though I have not purchased anything as yet from ARC, I probably will be doing in the future. Neil, Jason ,Ketan & a few others have been a godsend to have for their expertise & valuable information that they have personally given to me & many others. I have had some quite negative comments from some members which is a shame. There is one who gave me hell over putting a powered drive on the mill, just to see a few months later he was talking to another member about his own mill, & wishing it had guess what on it.

Without this assistance from the said people above this would be just another average forum. But it is not, it is a great forum. Long be it so.

Steve.

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