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Help required to select correct replacement Relay

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C T16/04/2020 18:48:51
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43 forum posts
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I am currently suffering from central locking woes on my Land Rover Defender its just not working.

The system is an after market one looks to be a reasonable quality made by a company called SPAL automotive.

The control module (60040222) has two relays Italian made by Fitre the reference number on them is HR-AMR-Y/012-Z1 I have found a data sheet for the relays on this page. http://www.fitre.it/fitredb02.nsf/ada919df9b798f57c125697600350c60/faeca0d6c808e7ebc12569e300521c90/$FILE/HR-AMR-Y.pdf

I am unable to find a distributor for Fitre relays so looked at RS components for an alternative but found relays to be a minefield and was unable to make any sense of the information I have to the information given on RS website to be able to select an alternative relay.

Can anyone offer assistance with selecting the correct replacement relay please.

I have only a minimum of electrical knowledge and only think it is the relay that is faulty as when I apply a voltage to the relays I can get the one working but not the other.

Thank you in advance.

Grizzly bear16/04/2020 19:03:49
282 forum posts
8 photos

CT,

Can you remove the suspect relay without too much bother.( Easier to test).

The relay may be driven with a transistor.

It's also likely to have a diode across the relay coil.

These items are usually less reliable than the relays.

Good luck, keep us posted.

.Bear...

Former Member16/04/2020 19:06:55
1329 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

John Baron16/04/2020 19:21:55
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481 forum posts
186 photos

Hi CT,

These people stock the automotive relays

https://www.beal.org.uk/index.php

look under automotive.

C T17/04/2020 11:30:39
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Grizzly bear on 16/04/2020 19:03:49:

CT,

Can you remove the suspect relay without too much bother.( Easier to test).

The relay may be driven with a transistor.

It's also likely to have a diode across the relay coil.

These items are usually less reliable than the relays.

Good luck, keep us posted.

.Bear...

Grizzly Bear

I have removed both relays from the PCB and they both work fine on the board are as you say additional components-

8 resistors

4 diodes

2 transistors

2 capacitors

I now believe a repair is beyond my scope, I just would not know how to conduct any tests on any of the other components.

Thank you for your help.

CT

Andy Carruthers17/04/2020 12:27:27
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317 forum posts
23 photos

Have you considered a replacement unit from a car breaker? Most likely the units are generic off the shelf so may be found in various makes and models

V8Eng17/04/2020 13:13:25
1624 forum posts
32 photos

I think SPAL Have a U.K. base in Worcester. Might be worth contacting them and asking for advice.

link to them here.

SPAL

Edited By V8Eng on 17/04/2020 13:14:28

Grizzly bear17/04/2020 16:12:37
282 forum posts
8 photos

Hi CT,

The resistors are easy to check, the colours will indicate the correct values.

Diodes, if you have a multimeter, one way high resistance, the other way low resistance, plenty of info on the 'net.

Capacitors not so easy, best to change them, the values are written on them.

What are the numbers/letters on the transistors? You could swap them over to prove good or bad.

Where are you situated, I have a stock of components, cost of postage only.

Bear..

C T17/04/2020 18:18:57
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Grizzly bear on 17/04/2020 16:12:37:

Hi CT,

The resistors are easy to check, the colours will indicate the correct values.

Diodes, if you have a multimeter, one way high resistance, the other way low resistance, plenty of info on the 'net.

Capacitors not so easy, best to change them, the values are written on them.

What are the numbers/letters on the transistors? You could swap them over to prove good or bad.

Where are you situated, I have a stock of components, cost of postage only.

Bear..

Grizzley Bear

Thank you for the push, I will be having a go at repairing.

I can't make it any worse than a module that doesn't work which is the position I am currently in.

I have looked at the cost and everything is relativly inexpensive.

Not only will it be back working but I'll have a sence of achieved my first electronic repair (if it works)

The state of play is two working relays, everything else unknown condition. Out with the multimeter and start testing. Will the resisters show the correct resistance whilst still in situe, diodes as you say again whilst still attached. If no faults identified I will change both the capacitors and transistors.

Thank you for your kind offer of parts I may be back in touch.

CT

 

 

Edited By C T on 17/04/2020 18:23:57

C T17/04/2020 18:31:54
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Andy Carruthers on 17/04/2020 12:27:27:

Have you considered a replacement unit from a car breaker? Most likely the units are generic off the shelf so may be found in various makes and models

I have looked at a few units after your nudge not found one I could use. Will keep looking.

Andy Carruthers17/04/2020 18:42:47
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317 forum posts
23 photos

To test the resistors desolder one leg from the board and measure across component otherwise a false reading may occur

More likely to be diode, transistor or capacitor than resistor

If the transistors are NPN or PNP these can be tested in same way as diodes from base to emitter then base to collector, one way will conduct, reverse the leads and recheck which should not conduct

However, there are various other types of transistor ie FET, UJT etc which may not give the results you expect

If replacing polarity conscious capacitors make sure they are replaced in the correct orientation

C T19/04/2020 10:51:11
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43 forum posts
3 photos

I have looked on the internet for How to check the various components located on the PCB I have found enough detail to satisfy me to go ahead with testing but first.

Rechecking the relays it would appear that the one relay which at first I thought was not working then after de-soldering it was working. after further try's I now find it will NOT WORK every time, its about three times out of ten when done one after the other in quick succession that it WILL switch.

With this information I am back to the relay replacement. I have looked on RS components web site and used the filters requesting the specification needed against specification on the data sheet for the fitre relay and it gives me nothing in the RS range.

I am thinking that my lack of knowledge of which criteria is critical and which is not is the problem there.

This may be out of the box thinking (well it is for me) "could I use a standard Automotive five connector none latching relay connected to the PCB by way of wire?" I understand the size difference and it not fitting into the control module but if it works I would be happy for it to remain outside the module. I am guessing this will put the module out of balance with the remaining electronics and is a NO NO but just thought I would ask.

Thank you in advance.

CT

Grizzly bear19/04/2020 18:34:48
282 forum posts
8 photos

Hi CT,

Thanks for the update.

Your duff relay probably has pitted contacts, causing it to malfunction.

Good thinking on the standard auto relay.

You will need to check if the relay coils are similar in value, do this with your ohmmeter.

Can you tell us what the numbers/letters are on the transistors, this will give us an idea of how much current they can switch.

Good luck,

Bear..

Samsaranda19/04/2020 19:10:09
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1186 forum posts
5 photos

I keep Koi and on my big pond I have an automatic filtration system, you can set the time period between filter purges, which then dumps accumulated crud to waste. I currently have a problem where the cleaning cycle initiates and functions but the final operation, the opening and closing of the waste valve, will not operate. By logically analysing the components and the electronics box I have worked out that it is a relay that isn’t functioning, inside the electronics box there are 5 relays of three different types, 2 types have built in adjustable timers just to complicate the issue; unfortunately I am unable to pin down which relay is the culprit, the electronics are really tightly packed in. I am now in the same situation as you CT, I need a replacement relay but didn’t know where to get it from. I found a makers name and reference number on each type of relay so I resorted to the good old internet and managed to track down the manufacturer, who is in China, what a surprise, I decided that as the relays only cost 10 US dollars each I decided to buy one of each of the 3 types fitted in my equipment so that I could substitute until I found the one that wasn’t working. The 2 spare relays will be kept for spares, you never know when you will need replacements. CT have you tried inputting the relay make and part number into the internet to see what comes up, that way you can bypass the manufacturer of your unit and get replacement from the original manufacturer. One thing to note my relays come as either 230volt or 12/24 volt, after ordering I received an email from the supplier to check which voltage I required, at least I know they are probably on their way, although who knows how long they will take to get here from China with the current pandemic situation.
Dave W

Andy Carruthers20/04/2020 09:04:39
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317 forum posts
23 photos

Grizzly bear offers good advice

Having looked at the pdf, yours is 1 Form C (Z) on the last page which looks to be compatible with a standard 12v relay, just be aware there are various standard 12v automotive relays!

If considering a replacement, from the pdf, the coil resistance is 130 ohms +/- 10% with current requirement of at least 12 A - that is, when the contacts are closed (NC) the replacement relay contacts must handle a minimum of 12A

I presume you have swapped the relays over (after checking they are identical) to see whether the fault moves? I expect this will be the case given your comment on intermittent operation but will confirm all other components are working ok

I did find this relay on eBay: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/163857213519 Please check the pinouts and unfortunately I don't speak French but it *might* be the right part

C T20/04/2020 09:25:15
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Grizzly bear on 19/04/2020 18:34:48:

Hi CT,

Thanks for the update.

Your duff relay probably has pitted contacts, causing it to malfunction.

Good thinking on the standard auto relay.

You will need to check if the relay coils are similar in value, do this with your ohmmeter.

Can you tell us what the numbers/letters are on the transistors, this will give us an idea of how much current they can switch.

Good luck,

Bear..

Morning Bear

Thank you for the information it really is appreciated.

You asked for markings on the transistors I have also included the capacitors and diode markings may help you.

Transistors -- MPS A14 031

Capacitors -- 10uF (M) SE85° C 1144

Diode-----------IN 400 IC

Thank you

CT

Andy Carruthers20/04/2020 09:33:27
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317 forum posts
23 photos

IN4001 is a power device used in bridge rectifiers and the like (as opposed to a signal diode) and can be replaced with 1N4002-4 etc, these are pennies to buy

MPS A14 031 appears to be a Darlington NPN Transistor, high gain low power so not used to drive the relay, most likely to provide signal back to a control circuit - I am guessing behaviour based upon transistor characteristics

I think you have found the problem though - the relay itself

C T20/04/2020 09:40:30
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Andy Carruthers on 20/04/2020 09:04:39:

Grizzly bear offers good advice

Having looked at the pdf, yours is 1 Form C (Z) on the last page which looks to be compatible with a standard 12v relay, just be aware there are various standard 12v automotive relays!

If considering a replacement, from the pdf, the coil resistance is 130 ohms +/- 10% with current requirement of at least 12 A - that is, when the contacts are closed (NC) the replacement relay contacts must handle a minimum of 12A

I presume you have swapped the relays over (after checking they are identical) to see whether the fault moves? I expect this will be the case given your comment on intermittent operation but will confirm all other components are working ok

I did find this relay on eBay: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/163857213519 Please check the pinouts and unfortunately I don't speak French but it *might* be the right part

Morning Andy

Thank you for the information and taking time to help again I do appreciate it.

No I had not swapped over the relays but I have now, yes they are the same and yes in both locations the good relay works always so I believe it is the relay at fault.

I have looked at https://www.ebay.fr/itm/163857213519 and yes the pins look to be identical to mine five pins a group of three and two at the other end.

Not sure what to do now my gut feeling is to pursue the alternative relay first.

Thank you

CT

Andy Carruthers20/04/2020 09:49:09
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317 forum posts
23 photos

Occams Razor - the simplest solution is always the best

I would go with direct replacement otherwise I have to ensure the replacement meets or exceeds the original item specification and modify wiring which from experience is time consuming and makes the fix non-standard, in years to come I don't have to remember what I did!

C T20/04/2020 10:00:13
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43 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Andy Carruthers on 20/04/2020 09:49:09:

Occams Razor - the simplest solution is always the best

I would go with direct replacement otherwise I have to ensure the replacement meets or exceeds the original item specification and modify wiring which from experience is time consuming and makes the fix non-standard, in years to come I don't have to remember what I did!

Thank you for that yes I agree simplest is the best.

The pins on the French unit look the same as my one and if made to an ISO or equivalent standard will have the correct spacings so do we (royal we because I don't know) believe they will be a direct replacement?

I have put a photo of the SPAL M5 control unit in my album.

Than you

CT

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