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Tom Senior light X Axis power feed

A work in progress.

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Steviegtr08/04/2020 00:40:41
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Well after the txt message I received today from The NHS. It seems I am at high risk of infection. I must stay at home for 12 weeks. Darn it. So my look forward to visiting Tesco on a Sunday morning has gone out the window. So now I need lots of idea's to do in the workshop.

Steve.

Andy Carruthers08/04/2020 05:17:26
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Hi Steve,

Would you please post photos showing how the motor is connected to the X drive?

JasonB08/04/2020 07:27:34
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Andy, look in his album, plenty of photos there.

Howard Lewis08/04/2020 13:03:42
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Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

Steviegtr08/04/2020 16:22:00
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Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/04/2020 13:03:42:

Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

You sound like my dad when he saw me with my Morris minor gearbox laid out in bits. Broken 2nd to 3rd gear locking bush. 10s 6p from Appleyards.

Steviegtr09/04/2020 03:06:19
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1164 forum posts
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Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/04/2020 13:03:42:

Looks like you are making a neat job of it.

But, I do share the concerns about newbies, who are seemingly unaware of their limitations, and strip a functioning machine tool without the skill to understand what they are really doing, so that what started as a good accurate machine finishes up as an expensive doorstop, owned by a very disillusioned body.

Maybe, as a lifelong engineer, I err on the side of being overcautious. But once some unknown mechanism comes apart scattering unseen bits everywhere, so that you don't know what you are looking for, or if you have found all the bits, that may explain it?

Howard

 

A Message for Howard, whoever you are.

Just to add. Because some people take an engineering career for there vocation does not make them good at it. You are born with it. That was what I was going to do when I left school but my dad stopped me. He said the money is in the Building trade, he got me a job as an apprentice Electrician, after 6 months as a Sheet metal worker, . He was right & I retired from it very fruitful. In between I bought over 200 write off vehicles as a hobby, including motorcycles, scooters, cars, & a few Motorhomes. Every single one of them was rebuilt by me to the exacting standards of a new vehicle. Not one complaint from my customers.Leaving me time to do what I always loved most. Making things. Modifying things & dreaming up stupid idea's . Much to the distaste of a lot of members on this forum that seem to think .

Unless you buy a set of plans for a Blenkinsop engine you are not worthy. I spent many hours with my unfortunately very poorly friend, in railway sheds measuring up old steam engines.

Then we would convert the measurements to a scale he wanted. We would spend an age making wooden patterns of the parts. Then a Foundry in Castleford would cast the parts for him.

I used to modify the Borg Warner T25 5 speed gearbox from the Sierra Cosworth's to take over 500 BHP reliably.

Also tuned many Nissan Skyline gtr 33 vspec engines to run a reliable 1000 BHP. So before you accuse someone of not knowing what they are doing & will loose some parts . THINK WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

To conclude my ranting, I will say. I took a lovely old Tom Senior Milling machine & brought it to the 21's century.

I may add & will be hung drawn & quartered by Jason & co. These old machines are much better than the you know what's

Steve. & very proud to be. So stick that in your pipe & smoke it. N.L.Y.B.D.I.T.D.

Edited By Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 03:19:41

JasonB09/04/2020 10:18:29
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Posted by Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 03:06:19:

I may add & will be hung drawn & quartered by Jason & co. These old machines are much better than the you know what's

In what respect Steve?

I would say that that yours is built to a better standard and more rigid than a modern day bench top mill.

However the fact that you and the previous owner(s) have had to do a lot of modifications would seem to suggest that it was not so good to start with in it's as supplied form, lets see.

VFD added to make speed change easier and also increase max spindle speed.

DRO added for ease of use and improved accuracy

Power feed added

Tacho added

All of these came as standard on the far eastern machine you were considering so wold it be fair to say that is better spec'd.

You have the MT spindle that most on here would rate less than an R8, again R8 standard on the import

You still seem to think it needs a bigger motor so is the one on it not better than the more powerful one on the import.

You are still limited by the slender MT2 tooling but that is obviously" better" than the more rigid R8 of the import. The slender MT2 will probably also prevent you making the most of the rest of the machines rigidity.

You have play in the Y axis and won't be able to buy new leadscrew and/or nut which is obviously better than being able to buy spares for the imported machines. Or at least easy to buy Trapizoidal screws and nuts that could be made to fit unlike harder to source ACME.

But so long as you are happy with it that is all that matters in the end.

J

Edited By JasonB on 09/04/2020 10:19:47

Andy Carruthers09/04/2020 19:58:40
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274 forum posts
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Thanks Jason I should have looked at photos first

Personally I can’t see anything wrong with the mod which Steve has produced, unless I am mistaken, there doesn’t seem to be an issue with removing and restoring back to original if desired

I am not a qualified mechanical engineer nor professional machinist, I purely enjoy my hobby and am developing my skills as time permits, learning from many people here

And for what it is worth, I have modified my WM180 to improve usability and safety, at the end of the day I have enjoyed every minute too

It may be unpopular to say so, but hats off to you Steve for making the effort and for showcasing your mod

Michael Briggs09/04/2020 21:27:03
184 forum posts
9 photos

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

Alan Waddington 209/04/2020 21:55:51
496 forum posts
87 photos
Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 21:27:03:

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

 

Curious as to why you need to feel whats going on when milling.......do you never use the carriage feed or cross slide feed on your lathe which is exactly the same ?

 

 

Edited By Alan Waddington 2 on 09/04/2020 22:00:42

Steviegtr09/04/2020 21:59:09
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1164 forum posts
99 photos
Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 09/04/2020 21:55:51:
Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 21:27:03:

I have a Senior mill but I have no desire to fit a power feed because for me the mechanical feedback from the machine is invaluable. If I did I would make sure it had a sensitive means of torque limitation.

Curious as to you need to feel whats going on when milling.......do you never use the carriage feed or cross slide feed on your lathe which is exactly the same ?

wink

Steve.

Michael Briggs09/04/2020 22:07:46
184 forum posts
9 photos

I do indeed, generally for finishing cuts.

Howard Lewis09/04/2020 22:30:48
3148 forum posts
2 photos

Steve, Glad that you describe engineering as a vocation.

You will will be pleased to know that in the past I have had things go "ping" and send all sorts of bits around the shop! When I made a mess of my lathe, being unaware of the detail of what was involved, I was wary of stripping the Apron, so I sought help and advice.

If you look at my profile it will show that I have spent all my life solving problems for world leading companies, so very occasionally, I do think.

In the course of that career, I have come across folk who think that a turbocharger will solve all problems; until it causes a major one.

My concern was is for folk who unwittingly bite more than they can chew, and then become disillusioned and decide that model engineering is a rubbish hobby..

I don't want that to happen.

We all learn from our experiences,.If we don't we are destined to make the same mistake again, until we do.

The work that you have shown looks to be of good quality.

You don't need to wear the cap if it doesn't fit.

Howard,

Michael Briggs09/04/2020 22:49:54
184 forum posts
9 photos

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

Steviegtr09/04/2020 23:00:33
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1164 forum posts
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Well on that note. My S7 has a power feed & cross feed. So far I have used neither. Yesterday & tonight I have used the feed on the mill. Tonight I started by winding by hand taking 15thou cuts from a block of mild steel. Using 650rpm, with a 5/8" 2 flute HSS cutter. It seemed to be going fine so I raised to 30 thou cuts. I was not happy so went back to 15 & used the power feed.

That rotates at 40rpm. It cut great & I took 6mm from the block doing traditional & climbing back & forth. I really do not know why someone would not want a power feed.

If you were buying new & the salesman offered you the power feed on a machine for free. Would you say no. Because that is just about what it cost me. The only damage that cannot be put back is the 2, 4mm holes for the limit switch on the front casting. Everything else is retro fit. If that is the correct word.

Steve.

Steviegtr09/04/2020 23:12:29
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1164 forum posts
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By Howard Lewis.

My concern is for folk who unwittingly bite off more than they can chew, and then become disillusioned and decide that model engineering is a rubbish hobby.

The cap. Well I always take my cap off to anyone who designs or makes something mechanical. I have always been in awe of all things mechanical. Even as an infant I can still remember mum taking us to the fairground. All I wanted to do was watch the huge traction engine that was powering the speedway ride. Even now I love to watch the steam train doing the Scarborough run in Summer. To make a miniture of those machines is fantastic to see. I have always said how on earth do you have the patience. My friend Randy had a Black five steamed up in his garden many years ago. It was about 18" long. Even the dinky pressure gauges worked. Amazing. Regards.

Steve

Howard Lewis10/04/2020 09:09:04
3148 forum posts
2 photos

Steve,

Like you, I stand in awe of the folk who make such superb models. FAR beyond my skills, and patience.

I am much of a backyard mechanic, making whatever takes my fancy. Often made from whatever happens to be lying around; making it up as I go along, from sketches on the back of envelopes.

My earliest engineering related memory was, as a six year old, turning the starting handle for my father to set the valves on the family car. That started me off on a long and unexpectedly varied career, working on cars, vehicles, and eventually into problem solving and development on things from locomotives, fuel injection, and even marine engines.

Life sometimes leads us down paths that we never envisaged!

I never started off yearning for a lathe, (too little knowledge ) but once obtained, would never be without one..

A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, won a Gold medal for his loco at Sandown Park. When he got it home, he said "It's not right" "Why not? You won the Gold medal" "The shadowing on the lettering isn't right" Perfection!

As you read the various posts on here, you realise that many posters have a huge range of skills and experience in all sorts of fields, some of which can hardly be imagined. By sharing our experiences, as with your Mitutoyo micrometer, we all learn something. At some time in the future, that bit of info may prove vital for some problem that we encounter.

Howard

JasonB10/04/2020 10:26:27
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Posted by Steviegtr on 09/04/2020 23:00:33:

Yesterday & tonight I have used the feed on the mill. Tonight I started by winding by hand taking 15thou cuts from a block of mild steel. Using 650rpm, with a 5/8" 2 flute HSS cutter. It seemed to be going fine so I raised to 30 thou cuts. I was not happy so went back to 15 & used the power feed.

That rotates at 40rpm. It cut great & I took 6mm from the block doing traditional & climbing back & forth. I really do not know why someone would not want a power feed.

That is more of a lightweight than I thought, was it the motor bogging down or just a general unhappiness from the machine, if the latter then as has been said little point in upping the motors power.

However you may be able to do a bit more with better machining methods. You don't say if you were taking 15thou off the top of the part with each pass or using the side of the cutter and removing 6mm x 0.015 which will have a bearing on things.

2-flute cutters, keep then for cutting accurate groves eg full 5/8" width to a desired depth or plunge cutting a neat hole. having just two flutes you will only have one engaged in the work at any given time so can get a slight knocking effect so 4-flute would be better both for surfacing and also side cutting.

If you were coming down in 15thou passes then that will soon wear the end of the flutes and the blunt cutter will make the machine even less happy. So as you have paid for a cutter with flutes all the way up the side why not use them, take a series of cuts say 0.240" deep and then that leaves you a 0.010" full width finish pass.

4-flute cutter should be able to remove twice as much metal while still keeping the same chip load as the two flute cutter thus allowing it to be fed at twice the rate and therefor halving the machining time though if the machine is that light maybe only a 50% increase could be gained but better than now.

As you like your Youtube videos here are a couple of my X3 using a similar size 16mm cutter on steel and feeding at a similar rate, main difference is I'm removing twice the volume of metal they your figures assuming you were using the full 5/8" width of the cutter, now which was the better machinewink 2

2mm deep x 6mm wide @ 500rpm cheap 4-flute HSS cutter.

0.6mm wide x 19mm deep @ 600rpm

Alan Waddington 210/04/2020 11:10:01
496 forum posts
87 photos
Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:49:54:

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

Engage power feed, let go of handles.......please explain difference ?

not done it yet10/04/2020 13:55:55
4503 forum posts
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Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 10/04/2020 11:10:01:
Posted by Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:49:54:

The notion that my milling machine and lathe behave exactly the same is ridiculous.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 09/04/2020 22:54:57

Engage power feed, let go of handles.......please explain difference ?

Of course they will be different, but the same principles apply. Power feed will be more consistent than manual feed, allowing optimum speed without exceeding (overloading) or reducing (slower progress) the feed.

I don’t always use power feed while taking off the uneven edges, but once cutting consistently, the power feed is used, for straight cuts, if possible.

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