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Record no 1 vice jaws seized - removal?

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choochoo_baloo23/03/2020 00:28:36
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252 forum posts
54 photos

I acquired an original Record No 1 vice. Both knurled vice jaws fixing screws are seized in place.

I sat thing was sat in moalasses for a month, then Wd40 for a week,

...to not avail, the screwdriver cams out and is gradually chewing up the head.

Therefore grateful for advice on how to remove. Thanks.

Nigel Graham 223/03/2020 00:34:32
748 forum posts
16 photos

I don't know the size of this vice, so this may not help...

With the vice dismantled, can you set the two parts on the bench-drill or mill to drill the screws out and re-tap the holes? They are quite likely either BSF or BSW, so finding replacement screws might be difficult, though.

Pete.23/03/2020 00:35:27
222 forum posts
36 photos

Drill the screw head out, pull the jaw off, I then gripped what was left of the screw thread with some mole grips and undid, have you tried a hammer driven impact driver?

Kiwi Bloke23/03/2020 03:17:00
461 forum posts
1 photos

It used to be possible (may still be for all I know) to buy special vice jaw screwdrivers. These were stubby things, of hexagonal section, to take a wrench and/or cross-drilled for a tommy bar. The 'other' end was pointed, intended to sit in the slot of the opposite jaw's screw. The driver was engaged with the screw ro be removed, and located in the opposite screw by gently tightening the vice. Cam-out prevented! You might be able to use one of the screwdriver bits intended for magnetic drivers, etc., but a larger diameter is better for the gorilla-like forces usually required.

DC31k23/03/2020 07:29:15
257 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 23/03/2020 03:17:00:

It used to be possible (may still be for all I know) to buy special vice jaw screwdrivers. These were stubby things, of hexagonal section, to take a wrench and/or cross-drilled for a tommy bar. The 'other' end was pointed, intended to sit in the slot of the opposite jaw's screw. The driver was engaged with the screw ro be removed, and located in the opposite screw by gently tightening the vice. Cam-out prevented! You might be able to use one of the screwdriver bits intended for magnetic drivers, etc., but a larger diameter is better for the gorilla-like forces usually required.

It is good to hear that the right tool exists. I have lost count of the number of Youtube restorations I have seen where they first dismantle the vice and then try to remove the jaws. Use the vice itself to assist in removing its jaws.

A cut off and ground down allen key would do the job. As well as the standard 1/4" A/F hex bits, they also come in 8mm and 10mm A/F.

A lot of vice jaw screws have a non-standard countersink angle and sometimes are quite a low head. So it is worth preserving at least one of them as a pattern for making replacements.

Clive Foster23/03/2020 08:09:02
2373 forum posts
76 photos

The straight blade screwdriver bits out of the common, inexpensive, 1/2" drive hand held impact driver sets make an adequate substitute for the proper vice jaw screwdriver on smaller vices. But the drive hex is smaller so not as easy to get monster gorilla force on.

Given that I've used the big straight blade on mine about twice in 40 years I'd probably weld a bar directly to the blade head for maximum leverage at minimum distance.

There is always the good old weld a nut on standby. Its claimed that the heat helps release things.

Clive

not done it yet23/03/2020 08:28:51
5010 forum posts
20 photos

You’ve tried nothing yet, only wasted your time. Molasses will not penetrate and WD-40 is just a water displacer - not a release agent.

Try a proper release fluid (after drying the area)?

As Clive, above, try an impact screwdriver - trying manually is clearly a waste of effort.

If apart, use anti-clockwise drills to drill exactly down the centre of the screws (may nee flatting with an end mill before centre punching, or whatever, before drilling.

The welded nut method is good, but the weld may be very hard to mill with HSS afterwards, if it doesn’t work.

I expect the screws will be countersunk Whitworth. You can make some, if none are available as you are probably making new jaws, anyway. Likely only stuck on the countersink anyway, so removal of the jaws by drilling off the screw heads may well allow the threads to be removed. The nut-welding method is best performed at that stage.

These are all standard documented methods. Try You Tube for some inspiration.

SillyOldDuffer23/03/2020 08:55:56
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6325 forum posts
1387 photos
Posted by choochoo_baloo on 23/03/2020 00:28:36:

... Record No 1 vice. Both knurled vice jaws fixing screws are seized in place.

I sat thing was sat in moalasses for a month, then Wd40 for a week,

...

Neither molasses or WD40 are ideal for this job. Molasses is an inconsistent natural product and how good or bad it is at removing rust is in the lap of the gods. Vinegar is more reliable but I would go the whole hog and buy a proper chemical rust remover. Be careful when buying because one type converts rust into a hard black covering - absolutely not wanted in this case.

Although WD40 isn't completely hopeless as a penetrating lubricant, it's not much cop either! Again, buy some proper Penetrating Oil and use that instead.

Heat is a good way of opening up rusted joints. Metal expands and contracts with heat and cooling and this tends to shatter rust and weaken thread-locker. Physical shock tends to break rust too, hence Impact Drivers.

Patience is a virtue if the screws are to be removed without damage.

I'd try:

  1. Mechanically clean the screw heads and then with rust remover.
  2. Heat jaws with a blowlamp - too hot to touch rather than red-heat, and allow to cool. Repeat.
  3. Apply penetrating oil and leave overnight
  4. Test for loosening, if still tight repeat steps 2,3,4

Dave

Mike Poole23/03/2020 09:21:22
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2743 forum posts
64 photos

You will stand the best chance with a screwdriver bit that best matches the slot in the screw, full width and thickness. It can be useful if you make one to fit a socket that is only single hex and use the T bar to turn it. To prevent cam out use a piece of resilient material to prevent damage to the T bar and use the vice to apply some thrust to keep the bit in the slot. This has always resulted in a win for me. Don’t go mad with the thrust or you will be hindering rather than helping.

Mike

Neil Wyatt23/03/2020 09:37:58
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As Kiwi Bloke and Mike say, using the vice itself to stop cam out is a good strategy. heat and patience are also your friends, but if all else fails resort to an angle grinder to get the heads of the screws off.

Neil

Howard Lewis23/03/2020 09:51:08
3605 forum posts
2 photos

+1 for all those promoting using the vice to clamp a screwdriver bit to prevent cam out.

I believe that this is the method advocated by vice manufacturers.

If it already in bits, after soaking in Plus Gas or a similar release agent, try an impact driver. The shock may just start the screw turning.

Only start destroying things as a last resort.

Howard.

Michael Gilligan23/03/2020 10:09:33
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16365 forum posts
714 photos
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/03/2020 09:37:58:

[…]

but if all else fails resort to an angle grinder to get the heads of the screws off.

.


That could get very messy [countersunk screws]

MichaelG.

not done it yet23/03/2020 10:22:30
5010 forum posts
20 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/03/2020 10:09:33:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/03/2020 09:37:58:

[…]

but if all else fails resort to an angle grinder to get the heads of the screws off.

.


That could get very messy [countersunk screws]

MichaelG.

Guessing the only reason for jaw removal is replacement? So perhaps no great loss.

Dave Halford23/03/2020 10:32:16
921 forum posts
9 photos

If the screw slot is already gone too far by camming out.

Try tightening first, sometimes this actually does work.

you can use an old screwdriver and hammer to 'chisel' on the outer edge of the screw slot. Lots of anticlock medium taps with a 1lb hammer.

If too much screw head is being chiselled off it's time to break out the welder, mig or stick, hit the screw head with it till it glows, don't hit the jaws the weld will be mega tough to grind off. Then chisel it again, it will come out, if there's nothing to chisel use a spot punch.

Nicholas Farr23/03/2020 10:37:38
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2438 forum posts
1193 photos

Hi coocoo_baloo, a few moderate blows on top of the screws with a flat ended punch, wide enough to cover most of the screw head, and using a hammer will often work wonders especially if you also use penetrating oil as well.

Regards Nick.

Circlip23/03/2020 10:53:41
1197 forum posts

Hydraulic Cylinder Oil for best penetration, Motor cycle fork oil same.

Regards Ian.

Bazyle23/03/2020 12:12:43
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5468 forum posts
206 photos

The point about penetrating oils is to get the penetration. Use a 2-stroke mix. Petrol with a very little oil. The way it works is the thin petrol will penetrate right down any crack carrying oil with it, then evaporate leaving the oil. Any oil on its own, even a very thin oil cannot penetrate as far as petrol can because of the high surface tension. WD40 has too much oil to work well and the carrier is paraffin which is quite oily itself.

There used to be a series in ME called Jeynes Corner. Way back he worked in a millwrights gang in a factory. Recounted that when they came across a nut (normally a big one) that wouldn't shift they left an apprentice there with a small hammer to tap it continuously for a couple of hours after which is would come undone.
Imagine that nowadays. After five minutes of tapping out a few pop tunes the kid would be bored and just surfing on his phone.

peak423/03/2020 12:53:19
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1190 forum posts
143 photos

Normfest Oxim Ultra seems to work as well as most things I've tried as a penetrating oil, as does the Lidl one, though the latter only turns up occasionally.
Also worth a try is a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.

One I've not tried it yet, though I now have some in stock, is tincture of iodine.
I saw that one advocated on a British Motorcycle group on Facebook.

I too used an impact driver bit, which I re-ground previously to have a shorter spade part, tightened in the jaws of the vice and with a large spanner.

If anyone is planning on replacing the jaws with new hardened ones, drop me a PM as I know someone who makes them to order. Record No 1s might be a bit small to be cost effective though

 

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 23/03/2020 12:54:47

Mike Poole23/03/2020 13:17:58
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2743 forum posts
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I worked with an ex merchant navy man who said the way to check for a loose nut was to put your finger on the joint between nut and bolt and tap it with a hammer, a loose nut would move at the joint and be felt with your finger. He was talking about seriously big nuts for which the spanner’s would be a few feet long and be seriously heavy so just carrying a hammer rather than a load of huge spanner’s saves a lot of effort. Another of his tricks was to tighten a big nut with a hammer, while the labourer was fetching a large spanner he tapped the nut to tighten it until the big spanner arrived.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 23/03/2020 13:31:21

Robert Butler23/03/2020 17:25:34
157 forum posts
6 photos

Hit it with a hammer OUCH! Robert Butler

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