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JasonB18/09/2019 07:44:39
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Metric diameters and imperial pitches are quite common, just look at some of the combinations found on things like bicycle bottom brackets and axles particularly Italian stuff.

Michael Gilligan18/09/2019 08:45:05
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Posted by Howard Lewis on 17/09/2019 19:41:36:

I don't think for an instant that Ernst Leitz would mix Metric and Imperial.

[ ... ]

The parts that i had made with a 39 x 1 thread worked perfectly on my cameras, which were Leica thread!

.

Howard: I accept that this **LINK** is only 'a page on the web'

https://web2.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/misc/LeicaLTM.html

... but it is, I believe, a reasonably authoritative description of the history.

Unless your cameras were actual early Leicas; it is quite possible that your cameras had M42x1mm threads ... but that wasn't the point being made about Jason's link.

MichaelG.

Howard Lewis18/09/2019 11:28:24
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Sorry folks!

You think that I have been misled for the last 65 years?

Certainly, I do not believe what Wikipedia says, or any other site that says 26 tpi

I have used too many Leica fitting cameras, lenses and acessories to be in any doubt. .

Unfortunately, I have given away my "bible" on the Leica system,or i could quote chapter and verse.

The Leica cameras, from the 1 to the 111G and the clones (Tower, Canon, Periflex, Fed, Zorki etc,) and the Zenith 35M SLR, all used the 39 x 1 thread.

Check the history of the Leica camera. It was developed, originally just to test 35mm cine film, and did not have an interchangeble lens. Relatively few were produced with Compur leaf type shutters. The focal plane shutter allowed the use of interchangeable lenses.

I have just checked a set of Extension Tubes made by BDB of Luton ( who made all sorts of lens accessories, filter mounts etc ) and the packaging says "Fitting all Cameras with 39 mm x 1 mm pitch thread. Leica, Periflex, Zenith etc" A set of Leica thread Bellows also check out as 1 mm pitch, I have not checked my Periflex Focusing Screen, but can forecast the result.

26 tpi 60 degree form does not match as exactly as the 1 mm.pitch gauge.

Lots of Enlarging lenses also used the 39 mm x 1 mm thread, since Leitz originally intended the Collapsible Elmar to be removed form the camera body and used on the Valoy enlarger  to make prints from the negatives.

(There was a school of thought that the same lens should be used to enlarge the negative as to take the original photograph, in the hope that the various aberrations would cancel out )

I rest my case.

42 mm x 1 mm (Edixa, Praktika, Pentax etc ) came about with the need to increase the register from 28 mm, and the dimensions of the body, to accomodate the hinged mirror of the SLR.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 18/09/2019 11:36:32

Michael Gilligan18/09/2019 12:02:58
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secret

JasonB18/09/2019 12:30:54
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Posted by Howard Lewis on 18/09/2019 11:28:24:

26 tpi 60 degree form does not match as exactly as the 1 mm.pitch gauge.

Did you miss the bit about it also being Whitworth form not 60deg?

I wonder how much chance there is of a few turns of thread binding if 26tpi and 1mm pitch are mixed up, even less so when 55 & 60 deg angles are thrown into the mix.

Howard Lewis18/09/2019 12:49:52
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No Jason,

Didn't miss that bit either..

I checked Whit form thread as well.

Would it not be strange that makers of lenses, extension tubes and bellows would have got it wrong over the years, and made 1 mm pitch threads instead of 26 tpi whit form; (which would have been an alien thread to continental manufacturers of cameras and enlargers ) ?

The only Whit form threads that were popular in pre war years, and for some makers of tripods, post WW2 was 3/8 BSW, instead of the otherwise universal 1/4 BSW for attaching cameras.

Howard

Michael Gilligan18/09/2019 17:47:16
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Posted by Howard Lewis on 18/09/2019 12:49:52:

[ ...]

Would it not be strange that makers of lenses, extension tubes and bellows would have got it wrong over the years, and made 1 mm pitch threads instead of 26 tpi whit form; (which would have been an alien thread to continental manufacturers of cameras and enlargers ) ?

The only Whit form threads that were popular in pre war years, and for some makers of tripods, post WW2 was 3/8 BSW, instead of the otherwise universal 1/4 BSW for attaching cameras.

.

With some trepidation ... I will try once more:

No one has suggested that the later incarnations [by various makers] of the 39mm screw thread were not 1mm pitch.

The fact remains, however, that the first screw-threaded Leicas were 39mm by 26tpi Whitworth form.

If you think about it; it is not at all improbable ... Leitz was an established manufacturer of Microscopes, habitually using Royal Microscopical Society threads on its objectives, and therefore tooled-up for screw-cutting Imperial threads. Why would they not start-off by using 26tpi for the Leica ?

Please don't bother responding ... I just ask that you research the matter thoroughly

... You obviously will not be persuaded by any reference which is not of your choosing.

MichaelG.

peak418/09/2019 17:53:45
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Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/09/2019 12:02:58:

secret

I'm with you hereon in, since the various patents I've found don't specify the thread dimensions .
Much discussion on the Leica forum; to read it one needs to be a member, but I'll just leave this one link here.

FED/Zorki etc. were certainly 1mm pitch in their copies.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 18/09/2019 18:14:31

Howard Lewis20/09/2019 16:08:39
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Quite right Michael!

Microscope threads would have been Imperial, Whit form.

A lot of Photographic Enlarging lenses used Whit form threads, (my beloved Taylor, Taylor Hobson Ental lenses do )

A lot of Continental and Japanese, lenses, such as Schneider, El Nikkor etc use the 39 x 1 mm thread (Mine do!)

But this argument is about Cameras. All my photographic books, and experience, stretching back over nearly 60 years, and manufacturers quote 39 x 1 mm. The Corfield Periflex, the Rusian Rangefinders (as well as the unusual Zenit 35M ) and the Japanese Leica copies, such as Tower and Canon, and accessory and lens manufacturers all quoted and used 39 x 1mm. It is only recently that the erroneous belief in 26 tpi has arisen.

Lets just agree to disagree!

Howard

old mart27/09/2019 13:19:05
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To possibly clear up the argument about camera lens mount threads, have a look at the SRB Photographic web site, they manufacture pretty much every adaptor there is:

**LINK**

JasonB27/09/2019 13:38:51
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They do only seem to list M39 not L39 which seems to be the Leica 26tpi form, plenty of adaptors with 26tpi at 39mm dia so have to assume there was a camera they fittedsmiley

Here, here, here etc

Bazyle27/09/2019 13:42:53
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I have in my hand a 39mm tap. It is really difficult to decide whether it is 26tpi or 1mm with my plastic callipers but it is labelled 1mm. As it came from an engineer living near Kodaks in Harrow that explains why he had this unusual item. As it is still in wax unused perhaps it was purchased but was the wrong version for their equipment or they were intending to convert some of their imperial equipment just as it all went digital and the plant closed.

Michael Gilligan27/09/2019 20:17:29
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Posted by Bazyle on 27/09/2019 13:42:53:

I have in my hand a 39mm tap. It is really difficult to decide whether it is 26tpi or 1mm with my plastic callipers but it is labelled 1mm. As it came from an engineer living near Kodaks in Harrow that explains why he had this unusual item. As it is still in wax unused perhaps it was purchased but was the wrong version for their equipment or they were intending to convert some of their imperial equipment just as it all went digital and the plant closed.

.

@ Bazyle, and old mart

The existence, and common usage, of M39x1mm is not in question ...

If I recall correctly, the ‘error’ was first made by Canon and has persisted.

The matter under debate is simply what thread Leitz used when the screw-mount Leica was launched. … and as an interesting rider to that; whether Leitz ever succumbed.

MichaelG.

peak427/09/2019 22:44:35
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Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/09/2019 20:17:29:

If I recall correctly, the ‘error’ was first made by Canon and has persisted.

The matter under debate is simply what thread Leitz used when the screw-mount Leica was launched. … and as an interesting rider to that; whether Leitz ever succumbed.

MichaelG.

Everything I've read thus far, and it's quite extensive since the weather's been lousy, points to Barnack's use of a 39mm 26TPI thread on the Leica II through to the IIIc, and most sources point to it being chosen as Leitz were geared up to that pitch for microscope lenses.


Whilst there are claims it was patented, I've failed to find the original Reichspatentamt which ran from from 1931 to 1940. Since the LTM 39mm lenses were released in 1931, it was about the changeover period from the previous patent office. Post war of course, all German patents were voided as part of the war reparations, hence Leica patenting the M bayonet mount.

I've also tried several other worldwide patent searches, and found several by Leitz/Barnack, but not the relevant one specifying the pitch.


Schneider used to produce lenses, both for Leitz and in their own right; Google searches quote text from their web site referring to 39mm x 26TPI; see first link.

Unfortunately, Schneider have re-vamped the web site since this Google indexing, so the text is now missing. I've even tried using Wayback machine on their old site(s), but there isn't a snapshot at the relevant time. I think I narrowed it down to FAQ-10, but can't find it anywhere.

I'm not trying to force a point against anyone here, but pursuing it for my own interest now.

Bill

p.s. Leitz also made various lens adaptors to enable the use of LTM lenses on M mount, such as IRZ00 Part No. 14097, but I've failed to find the spec thus far.

Edited By peak4 on 27/09/2019 23:15:35

HOWARDT27/09/2019 22:53:48
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Never owned a Leica, thread from reason new to me. Camera threads

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