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Dumb question from a none driver

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Pete Rimmer05/09/2019 13:19:02
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Posted by FMES on 05/09/2019 11:40:47:

Neil,

'Patently Absurd'?? Whos name needs to be on the V5 on taking up posession of the vehicle?, who will get the notification to tax.

I was advised from Swansea, some years ago admittedly, that the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevent purchase taxes / VAT etc, secondary transactions between private individuals are not recorded in the same way hence the description of 'Registered Keeper'.

Regards

That's just DVLA's method of explaining the difference between owner and keeper for THEIR PURPOSES so that even the slowest-witted person could 'get it'. There's nothing magical about vehicles that makes the ownership of them different to the ownership of any other material thing.

Neil Wyatt05/09/2019 14:12:41
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Posted by FMES on 05/09/2019 11:40:47:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 31/08/2019 10:17:21:
Posted by FMES on 31/08/2019 08:11:10:

Simply, the OWNER is the person that originally purchased the car from new at first registration.

Everybody else that puts their name on the V5 is the REGISTERED KEEPER.

In your case, your sons name should be on the V5 with him being responsible for obtaining the Vehicle Excise Duty or Road Tax, for want of a better definition.

YOU will never be the OWNER of that vehicle.

REgards

No, that's patently absurd. When you buy a car and take it away ownership is legally transferred to you. It's nothing to do with V5 although a receipt is a good idea to help in any dispute...

Ownership is chiefly proven by possession and control.

You buy the car and drive it away, it's yours. You don't legally need a receipt to prove it.

Allow your son to be the keeper and ownership becomes a question of his word against yours if there is any dispute and there is no written agreement.

Neil,

'Patently Absurd'?? Whos name needs to be on the V5 on taking up posession of the vehicle?, who will get the notification to tax.

I was advised from Swansea, some years ago admittedly, that the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevent purchase taxes / VAT etc, secondary transactions between private individuals are not recorded in the same way hence the description of 'Registered Keeper'.

Regards

They do not track those transactions, as they are only interested in the registered keeper, but that doesn't stop the person buying a car being the new owner. Ownership per se is absolutely nothing to do with DVLA which is why the V5 clearly states it does not prove ownership.

I'm sure that if the police helpfully stop me and ask "Are you the owner of this car, sir?" then telling them "No the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevant purchase taxes / VAT etc." is unlikely to end well...

Neil

Paul Kemp05/09/2019 21:34:25
308 forum posts
11 photos
Posted by mark smith 20 on 04/09/2019 20:00:08:

Just an update i yesterday received a receipt in my name as owner so with the facebook conversation and screen shots off the phone showing the seller in the conversation i feel i have enough proof of purchase.

The V5c change of keeper has been done online.

Initial insurance my son took out on the van was wrong due to mix up between comparison site and insurance company not having me as owner of vehicle down on policy and not being covered for commuting to and from work.When contacted they said my son would have to either become the owner or cancel policy .So cancel policy it was.

Cancelled insurance today (within 14 day cool off period) £72 refund given on initial deposit.

Took out new policy today which has me as owner stated on the policy and my son as the keeper, and covers for commuting to and from work.

So everything seem alright i think.smiley

thanks everyone for all the advice

mark

Thanks Mark, glad you got it sorted and pleased what was refused regarding the wife years ago is now possible if you go to the right place. Also pleased my anecdotal evidence proved possibly useful as regards your first policy.

Paul.

FMES06/09/2019 06:58:15
601 forum posts
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/09/2019 14:12:41:
Posted by FMES on 05/09/2019 11:40:47:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 31/08/2019 10:17:21:
Posted by FMES on 31/08/2019 08:11:10:

Simply, the OWNER is the person that originally purchased the car from new at first registration.

Everybody else that puts their name on the V5 is the REGISTERED KEEPER.

In your case, your sons name should be on the V5 with him being responsible for obtaining the Vehicle Excise Duty or Road Tax, for want of a better definition.

YOU will never be the OWNER of that vehicle.

REgards

No, that's patently absurd. When you buy a car and take it away ownership is legally transferred to you. It's nothing to do with V5 although a receipt is a good idea to help in any dispute...

Ownership is chiefly proven by possession and control.

You buy the car and drive it away, it's yours. You don't legally need a receipt to prove it.

Allow your son to be the keeper and ownership becomes a question of his word against yours if there is any dispute and there is no written agreement.

Neil,

'Patently Absurd'?? Whos name needs to be on the V5 on taking up posession of the vehicle?, who will get the notification to tax.

I was advised from Swansea, some years ago admittedly, that the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevent purchase taxes / VAT etc, secondary transactions between private individuals are not recorded in the same way hence the description of 'Registered Keeper'.

Regards

They do not track those transactions, as they are only interested in the registered keeper, but that doesn't stop the person buying a car being the new owner. Ownership per se is absolutely nothing to do with DVLA which is why the V5 clearly states it does not prove ownership.

I'm sure that if the police helpfully stop me and ask "Are you the owner of this car, sir?" then telling them "No the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevant purchase taxes / VAT etc." is unlikely to end well...

Neil

OK, so playing devils advocate here, what would happen if you were stopped and told the police you were not the owner of the vehicle?

What would their actions then be?

Nicholas Farr06/09/2019 07:29:16
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Posted by FMES on 06/09/2019 06:58:15:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/09/2019 14:12:41:
Posted by FMES on 05/09/2019 11:40:47:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 31/08/2019 10:17:21:
Posted by FMES on 31/08/2019 08:11:10:

 

OK, so playing devils advocate here, what would happen if you were stopped and told the police you were not the owner of the vehicle?

What would their actions then be?

 

Hi FMES, they would ask you who the vehicle belongs to and if you had permission to be driving it, and most likely follow up your answer and if it is all in order, would take no more action, unless of course you were committing an offence in the first place. I've driven plenty of vehicles legitimately that have never belonged to me, in my time.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 06/09/2019 07:35:05

not done it yet06/09/2019 07:45:26
3341 forum posts
11 photos

FMES,

Dunno what planet you are from, but:

Do you own your house? Your car? Even your lathe?

Seems like you think that most people don’t own most of what possessions they think they own!

Personally, I own everything. House paid for (no mortgage). Cars paid for (no HP, lease, etc). Second hand lathe is considered as mine (I paid for it!). In fact, I don’t owe anything to anyone.

Your logic is totally flawed. Might be right on your planet - but not on planet Earth.

I think it is time for you to go back to your home, where presumably you don’t own anything, and the rest of us can then continue to live on this planet with real possessions with real ownership - well, at least for some of us.

Robert Atkinson 206/09/2019 07:51:17
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They do not track those transactions, as they are only interested in the registered keeper, but that doesn't stop the person buying a car being the new owner. Ownership per se is absolutely nothing to do with DVLA which is why the V5 clearly states it does not prove ownership.

I'm sure that if the police helpfully stop me and ask "Are you the owner of this car, sir?" then telling them "No the 'owner' was the person purchasing the vehicle as new (as declared at first registration on the V5) and paying the relevant purchase taxes / VAT etc." is unlikely to end well...

Neil

OK, so playing devils advocate here, what would happen if you were stopped and told the police you were not the owner of the vehicle?

What would their actions then be?

Neil is totally correct. The Police typically ask "is this your car" not are you the owner. They ar intersted in both ownership and registered keeper. The owner for possession and keeper for road traffic offences.
These could both be different from the driver. An example is a leased company car. The owner is the lease company, registered keeper the limited company and the driver anyone with permission.
You need the owners permission to drive the car but in the case of a vehicle on finance or lease the entity taking out the finance / Lease as delegated authority. The finance company does not want to be the keeper because they would some liability if the driver was not identifiable following an incident.
Just because you have the V5 and you are the keeper does not mean you own the car. If it is on finance (even from the previous keeper who did not tell you) the finance company can come and take it back if te payments arn't made. Conversly dody people lease cars because they can't be seized aginst other debts.

I've been in the situation when I was stopped one night by the police when in the company (limited company but only me, owner and keeper) van. They tried to ttell me I could not drive a company van on personal use without permission. They were a bit miffed when I held a board meeting with myself and gave myself permission.

Robert G8RPI.

Nicholas Farr06/09/2019 08:05:24
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Hi FMES, a question for you, if you bought a second hand car, all above board and then the next day, the guy who bought it new came knocking on your door demanding that you gave it back to him/her, would you give it to them without any payment or objection?

Regards Nick.

mark smith 2019/09/2019 20:54:35
599 forum posts
302 photos

Not too pleased at the moment van drove fine for a couple of weeks then on way to work my son broke down and had to call AA, he said engine was semi seized .

Put 3 litres of oil in and towed it back to my sons home as he didnt have the money to take to a garage. Various so caled mechanics reckon the turbo has failed or half a dozen other things. He decided to drive it to a mechanic mate and car conked out again with smoke coming from exhaust . Couldnt call AA again and a friend is picking is towing the car back to his place tomorrow.

Im totally at a loss as i know nothing about cars and probably why i dont drive.crying

Speedy Builder519/09/2019 21:05:09
1815 forum posts
127 photos

If you hire a car, you are just the driver of the car, The owner would be the company that rented the car say Europcar but the registered keeper would probably be the company secretary or other.

Andrew Evans20/09/2019 07:58:23
261 forum posts
1 photos

Mark, I don't want to sound mean or anything but why cant your son buy and run his own car? If it has broken down bring it to a garage and they will fix it. If it is uneconomical to fix then scrap it. If you own a banger and it has a major mechanical issue it may be uneconomic to repair it. That's the downside of owning a cheap car. If you want a reliable car that won't cost anything if it does break down get a new one or one under warranty. Andy

Michael Gilligan20/09/2019 08:07:37
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13975 forum posts
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Posted by mark smith 20 on 31/08/2019 10:27:18:

Thanks for all the replies,OK i`ll go into a little more detail.

[ ... ]

.

Andrew ... for info ^^^

MichaelG.

SillyOldDuffer20/09/2019 08:32:45
4696 forum posts
1010 photos
Posted by Andrew Evans on 20/09/2019 07:58:23:

Mark, I don't want to sound mean or anything but why cant your son buy and run his own car? If it has broken down bring it to a garage and they will fix it. If it is uneconomical to fix then scrap it. If you own a banger and it has a major mechanical issue it may be uneconomic to repair it. That's the downside of owning a cheap car. If you want a reliable car that won't cost anything if it does break down get a new one or one under warranty. Andy

Mark's earlier posts explained his son is legally bankrupt. The boy is trying to get back on his feet in circumstances that prevent him borrowing money or receiving gifts that his creditors would have a claim on.

Too late for Mark's son but it's best for businessmen to arrange matters so the company goes bust rather than the owner! Donald Trump has 6 corporate bankruptcies behind him but has never been personally bankrupt.

At least Mark's son has taken responsibility for whatever went wrong - good luck to him!

Dave

Nicholas Farr20/09/2019 09:32:23
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Hi Andrew Evans, it pays to get up to speed before making comments that are not appropriate.

Regards Nick.

Nicholas Farr20/09/2019 09:37:37
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Hi Mark Smith 20, sorry to hear about your predicament, hope you can get it resolved OK.

Regards Nick.

mark smith 2020/09/2019 10:20:21
599 forum posts
302 photos

Andrew ,i think i mentioned earlier the situation. I would also like to point out that my son has a mild form of Aspergers Sydrome ,he is trying to be independent and stand on his own feet but he is awful at handling money or budgeting .

He was receiving some disability benefits but these were stopped because of his insistance on trying to attend DSS interviews without telling us first as he should have had either myself ,my wife or a responsible adult with him .

He is working full time and claiming no benefits at the moment ,which is quite remarkable for many adults with autistic spectrum .

We did manage his money but the adult social worker he used to have insisted he learnt to manage his own money and of course he ended up in a right mess.

A mechanic friend thinks the cars problem is the turbo unit and can hopefully fix it for him.

Mark

Andrew Evans20/09/2019 18:17:54
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Apologies, I should have read the full thread before commenting.

Hopefully your friend can get it sorted.

Best wishes

Andy

Neil Wyatt20/09/2019 18:37:39
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Posted by FMES on 06/09/2019 06:58:15:

OK, so playing devils advocate here, what would happen if you were stopped and told the police you were not the owner of the vehicle?

What would their actions then be?

Well, when I told them that, on one occasion it was OK as she was in the passenger seat, and on the other they were content as I was able to tell them who the owner of the vehicle was.

Both times a light out requiring a check at an MOT station and a 'presenter'.

Neil

Mark Rand20/09/2019 20:57:38
756 forum posts

Got 'stopped' by the police when I was pushing a (new to me) moped up the hill on the way to work because its exhaust was so oiled up that it couldn't propel itself and me up the slope. I was asked "how long have had this?" to which I answered, correctly, "one day". Got a long lecture on road safety, which pissed me off a little bit, having been a motorcycle and car driver for 35 years at the time...

 

Edited By Mark Rand on 20/09/2019 20:58:20

FMES21/09/2019 09:22:54
601 forum posts
2 photos

First of all I feel I must apologise for trying to be helpful and creating a post that was not only mis read, (Mainly by my initial omission), and giving the barrack room lawyers a field day.

I was clearer in my second post that I was referring to the VIEW OF THE DVLA, I have never mentioned anything else about ownership.

Didn't stop all those people trying to find fault though did it?

To answer Neils last post on the subject - and I asked local plod about this- if you are stopped by the police you will normally be asked 'Is this your vehicle' NOT are you the owner, a small difference admittedly but they will already have done / be doing an ANPR to check for the Registered keeper, and they are looking for that data to match up with proof of identity being required.

Regards

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