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Torx head variant or faulty batch?

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Barrie Lever21/08/2019 15:24:26
323 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/08/2019 14:23:14:
Posted by not done it yet on 21/08/2019 10:30:12:

Torx head variant or faulty batch?

Not really a question, surely? Not even faulty. Just not Torx.

Has anyone else had a batch of these mongrel Torx heads?

I expect there are quite a few, but possibly not on here!

Can anyone suggest ...?

Just cheap chinese rubbish. No quality control. Slave labour production.

It is not the manufacturing that has gone awry. There will always be possible set-up errors, but they should not get palmed off to paying customers!

Care to give the origin (seller) so we all can be careful when making purchases?

NDIY, please think before you post.

No-one, except perhaps suppliers to aerospace projects, undertakes any more than sample quality control on fixings. Whether these came from China or Germany or anywhere else is irrelevant, any manufacturer of goods on the scale of small fasteners will end up sending out some rogue batches from time to time.

Comments alleging 'slave labour' are not very helpful either, especially from a citizen of country that itself has an estimated 13,000 people working under such conditions. Each province of China has a legally enforced minimum wage that is supposed to be at least 40% of the local average wage. Minimum wage is about 60% of the average wage in the UK.

Neil

Neil

I think you should read your own words with regard to your post !!

Good quality fixings are not the domain of aerospace, good manufacturers will have a super high percentage of their fixing product getting through with no faults. Modern manufacturing techniques and process control make this possible. I doubt that Unbrako would supply fixings in the state shown in the photo.

I am not sure where NDIY resides, probably the UK, there is no comparison between the average working conditions in the UK, EU, Japan or the USA compared to China. There are terrible factories in the west but there are way less of them per capita than in China.

Are you sure about the wage comparison figures? You are saying that the average minimum wage in China (there is no Chinese National min wage as you mentioned) is 60% of £28K which is the average wage in the UK. I think with red mist (no pun intended) that you wrote your post with that you got your numbers muddled up some where. As a matter of interest the average wage in Shanghai is above the UK average wage, but Shanghai is the wage leader in China.

Whilst NDIY was a bit blunt, what he said was correct.

B.

Vic21/08/2019 15:46:41
2208 forum posts
11 photos

I can’t remember the last time I had a dud fastener. The last bricks and mortar fastener shop I used quite a number of years ago told me that a lot of the stainless stuff I was buying like socket screws were coming from India. Actually I do remember some dodgy fasteners, they came fitted to my Chinese Lathe and also the mill! Easily replaced from stock at the time so I forgot about it.

JasonB21/08/2019 16:05:32
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Posted by Barrie Lever on 21/08/2019 15:24:26:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/08/2019 14:23:14:. Each province of China has a legally enforced minimum wage

Neil

(there is no Chinese National min wage as you mentioned)

Think you need to read it again Barrie, Neil did not mention a National minimum.

Can we now keep the talk to the subject of Torx

As someone who can often get through a 1000 screws in a week it is quite usual to have the odd duff one or two with either poor heads or plain shanks without the screw part being formed Seem to remember the same thing with old Nettlefold screws as now with screws that I don't know where they are made. I Just bin the duds and get on with it.

SillyOldDuffer21/08/2019 16:10:57
4595 forum posts
987 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 21/08/2019 15:24:26:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/08/2019 14:23:14:
Posted by not done it yet on 21/08/2019 10:30:12:...

Just cheap chinese rubbish. No quality control. Slave labour production.

...

...

 

...

Whilst NDIY was a bit blunt, what he said was correct.

B.

 

Apart from NDIY not knowing:

  1. The Country of Origin - assumed to be China, maybe not.
  2. What Quality Control is in place - assumed to be none, maybe wrongly
  3. The Terms and Conditions of the workforce - assumed to be 'Slave Labour', maybe not.

Three generalised assumptions from a commentator not involved in the purchase can hardly be described as 'correct' in the sense they are 'free from error; true; right'. Ironic that a criticism of a faulty product should itself be an intellectual quality failure. (A conclusion drawn in the absence of evidence.)

Personally I think it's a waste of time moaning about Chinese quality in the absence of affordable British alternatives. Whinging may be easy but it's also ineffective. The real challenge is to outperform foreign competition by doing the same thing better and/or cheaper here. Possibly it's not happening in the UK because there are better ways of making a living than making nuts and bolts, possibly it's because some mistakenly fail to believe other folk are just as clever and hard-working as them and go immediately bankrupt. Anyone wanting to bash China should look at their unpleasant foreign and domestic policies. Both are much better targets than cheapo ebay goods, but not really appropriate to this forum.

Dave

PS Jason asked for a shut-up while I was typing - sorry.

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 21/08/2019 16:13:02

Bill Phinn21/08/2019 16:16:25
197 forum posts
39 photos
Many thanks to everyone for your interesting and informative range of replies.

The seller, Bolt World, has been prompt in dealing with the matter so far, though the sequence of events do suggest they were aware there was a problem with their stock of these particular screws.
 
My order was for three different sizes of CSK screws. When the order arrived, one of the items (the one that ended up being the rogue batch) was, unaccountably, not CSK but dome-headed. I contacted the seller and was told they would send out the correct item asap, which they did. The rogue batch then arrived. I informed the seller of my concerns, and the response was that, regrettably, this was the only stock they had for this particular item.

I don't know what other people's experience is, but it has happened to me a couple of times recently that a seller/retailer, rather than choose to risk disappointing me by failing to fulfill part of an order because the item ordered is not actually in stock, has chosen to disappoint me somewhat more by silently substituting an item that is only a close match for what I ordered.

I suspect this may have something to do with the, to me, largely incomprehensible reaction of those apparently quite common buyers who give negative feedback of the following kind: "Paid instantly, seller said item not in stock & refunded - OUTRAGEOUS!!!", and I suspect that the subsequent sending out of an item that was almost certainly known to be defective was to do with another fairly common phenomenon, namely that many consumers do not have the time or the inclination to look critically at merchandise they've bought until the moment they come to use it or, somewhat later even, when it fails.
 

I’m not able to say anything authoritative about the relative superiority of Torx and Hex. My feeling, however, is that in the case of very small diameter fasteners in rust-free condition the torque that can be applied before cam-out or deformation of the slot occurs may be slightly higher with Torx than with Hex.

This was really why I opted for Torx as opposed to Hex for these M3 screws; in the past some M3 Hex fasteners did show obvious signs of slot deformation after several tightenings and loosenings. But possibly other factors were at play there: the hex screws being of inadequately hard metal, my Allen key and the hex recesses being a poor dimensional match, my technique…

I'll see if I can capture a clearer, more close-up image of the screw head. If so, I'll post it here.

Thanks again for the responses.

Bill Phinn21/08/2019 16:56:01
197 forum posts
39 photos

img_0928.jpg

img_0927.jpg

Barrie Lever21/08/2019 17:09:34
323 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by JasonB on 21/08/2019 16:05:32:
Posted by Barrie Lever on 21/08/2019 15:24:26:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/08/2019 14:23:14:. Each province of China has a legally enforced minimum wage

Neil

(there is no Chinese National min wage as you mentioned)

Think you need to read it again Barrie, Neil did not mention a National minimum.

Can we now keep the talk to the subject of Torx

As someone who can often get through a 1000 screws in a week it is quite usual to have the odd duff one or two with either poor heads or plain shanks without the screw part being formed Seem to remember the same thing with old Nettlefold screws as now with screws that I don't know where they are made. I Just bin the duds and get on with it.

I will reply to you by PM

Jeff Dayman21/08/2019 18:21:24
1596 forum posts
39 photos
Posted by JasonB on 21/08/2019 15:23:34:
Posted by Clive Hartland on 21/08/2019 15:18:57:

My answer was to put a screwdriver against and wipe it out.

That's not the model engineers way of doing things Clive, you know you should have spent the next three years contemplating making an EDM machine to modify your existing toolssmile p

Edited By JasonB on 21/08/2019 15:24:07

Jason you say that like there's something wrong with doing it that way..... smiley

(I actually built an EDM, for this sort of thing and many other jobs, I guess that makes me a fastener-abusing viking heathen. Congrats to Clive with the screwdriver action against the dimple! You're welcome to share the fastener viking designation with me! Now where's my cutting torch and big hammer.......)

jimmy b21/08/2019 19:27:59
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501 forum posts
28 photos

Its a faulty Torx.

I have had problems before with cap screws being under size/over size. I once even had some with out any hex at all!

When you think how big the batches must be (100,000??) having some bad ones slip through, can't be too much of a surprise.

Jim

old mart21/08/2019 20:58:59
444 forum posts
42 photos

This can happen when the boss is taking visitors around. He shows them a sample, then chucks it back in the wrong hopper.

Michael Gilligan21/08/2019 21:47:38
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13820 forum posts
603 photos
Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/08/2019 16:56:01:

img_0928.jpg

.

Thanks for the much clearer pictures, Bill yes

Whatever your 'misshapes' are ... they are certainly not credible as Torx

... Glad to hear that the Supplier is playing ball.

MichaelG.

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