By continuing to use this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more
Forum sponsored by:
Forum sponsored by Allendale July 23rd

Need a lot of help from you good people

All Topics | Latest Posts

Search for:  in Thread Title in  
Ron Laden20/08/2019 08:10:40
avatar
1307 forum posts
224 photos

Sorry double post

Edited By Ron Laden on 20/08/2019 08:13:04

Ron Laden20/08/2019 08:12:06
avatar
1307 forum posts
224 photos

The Sinclair motor is a good motor, no doubt about that and two of them (500 watts) will drive the loco along but how well and how easy..?

Judging by the pictures that looks to be a heavy loco, all metal and 7 1/4 inch so quite a lump. If it were mine I would be looking for more than 500 watts, I always think that is better to have enough power to drive with relative ease than not enough and the motor/motors working hard most of the time, plus you always have a throttle.

I think the loco needs a minimum of 1.5 HP and preferably 2.0 HP but others may think differently.

SillyOldDuffer20/08/2019 09:29:08
4595 forum posts
987 photos
Posted by Les Jones 1 on 19/08/2019 21:50:52:

I think those motors are WW2 vintage motor/generators. ...

Les.

+1 for that; When I was growing up WW2 surplus was my playground. Motor/generators were the best way to produce the multitude of voltages needed in large aircraft, less desirable second-hand than motors and cheaper.

Frances suggests the control system is pre-electronic and I think she's right. It may even be cruder than a field-winding control system - big wire-wound resistors straight off the 'regulator'!

resistors.jpg

Except the potentiometer top right hints at electronics somewhere!

Dave

Perko720/08/2019 09:42:34
278 forum posts
23 photos

Unless you are always accelerating or driving uphill or going around ridiculously sharp curves, a free-rolling train has very little resistance once it is moving. Try moving a loaded train by yourself, with just 1-manpower I can keep a train of two 7-1/4"riding cars each carrying 6 adults travelling at a fast walk without breaking a sweat. The average person can only manage about 250-300W maximum output, and I would not be using half of that. 2HP is in my opinion seriously over-powered, and requires batteries, leads and controller capable of handling the high currents such motors will draw if loaded to capacity. What is more important is traction, and provided that the motors have enough power to spin the wheels if the train is stalled then that is sufficient. It's not hard to measure the traction force available using a spring scale connected to the loco coupler and with the loco wheels locked. A few simple calculations will determine the motor power necessary to provide this traction force, add a little for a safety margin and you're pretty much set.

Have a look at the small motors powering e-bikes, and they are no slouches up steep hills or accelerating off the mark!

I'll get off my horse now.....cheeky

not done it yet20/08/2019 10:12:25
3246 forum posts
11 photos

Just took a cursory look at this post. My only comment, before moving on, is that power is only needed to accelerate and replace energy lost by friction. The latter is low (and fairly constant on a level track). Acceleration is a different ball game entirely. F = ma in Physics and needs to be taken into account when sizing motors.

F is Force, m is mass and a is acceleration.

terry callaghan20/08/2019 11:21:00
186 forum posts
5 photos

Hi. Thanks for all the physics. I have a question. Would fitting a motor from an electric bike and a 48v 15ah battery with new controller work. These motors come in 350w 500w and 1000w. But getting information on the torque they produce is hard to get. Surely there must be an answer to this.

Robert Atkinson 220/08/2019 13:41:39
avatar
344 forum posts
21 photos

If you know the power and RPM you can calculate the torque. I think a bike motor may run a bit fast and need a bit of reduction gearing. Be aware that their ratings can be optimistic and they may not be capable of the short term acceleration overloads the old ones could take.

A typical ebay "500W 24V DC 26.7A Electric Motor MY1020 + bracket for E-Scooter Electric Bike Is 640W in put power and 500W Max (continuous or 1min?) at 2500 RPM so torque is 1.91Nm or 1.41 lbf.ft

Robert G8RPI.

SillyOldDuffer20/08/2019 14:13:57
4595 forum posts
987 photos
Posted by terry callaghan on 20/08/2019 11:21:00:

Hi. Thanks for all the physics. I have a question. Would fitting a motor from an electric bike and a 48v 15ah battery with new controller work. These motors come in 350w 500w and 1000w. But getting information on the torque they produce is hard to get. Surely there must be an answer to this.

An electric bike motor and controller would certainly work. The power needed is decided as per earlier physics by:

  • the need to overcome friction in the bearings, drive train and motion work (in good condition). This can be gauged by pushing the engine by hand. A man working steadily can deliver about 250W, up to say 500W in ten minute bursts, and Olympic athlete up to 1500W for a few minutes. If the engine is easy to move 350W should drive it, otherwise 500W. If it's very stiff, check the bearings etc.
  • How fast the train needs to accelerate in service. A 100W motor can do the same amount of work as a 500W motor, but it needs 5 times longer to do it. That might be too time-wasting for comfort! If it wasn't for friction, a 1W motor and gearbox could move your engine, but it would be incredibly slow. You're looking for a reasonable balance between power and performance. Having plenty of power is exhilarating, but it's not necessary on a track model. Steam engines don't accelerate quickly in full-size and an electric model pulling wheelies down the track might not be popular!
  • Any hills the engine needs to climb. Once it's moving, pulling a train around a flat track doesn't do much work, but going up hill does! As railways are built flat, I think in practice this would just limit the weight of carriages and passengers that could be pulled at a particular site. This is echoed in full-size practice: railway freight engines are sized powerful enough to restart their load in the event the train is forced to stop on the journey's steepest incline. Engines for passenger trains are sized to accelerate to meet the timetable.

Other issue that might suggest a big motor is whether or not the engine is to be run continuously. A 350W motor run flat-out for hours will have a shorter life than a 1000W motor run at 350W simply because the big motor stays cooler. So motor size matters less on an engine run intermittently for fun at the track by the driver and a few bystanders than the same engine expected to haul hundreds of paying passengers continuously over a Bank Holiday weekend event.

A 15Ah battery can deliver 15 amps for an hour. That's 48V*15A = 750W for an hour. Actually, because deep discharging is undesirable, it would be unwise to assume more than about 75% of that, say 750W for 45 minutes, which isn't unreasonable for fun use. A 350W motor would use half the power and run for about 90 minutes, 500W about an hour. In practice because the motor probably wouldn't be run at full power all the time, it would likely last longer per session. But so much depends on stops, starts, how hard the driver accelerates, the rolling resistance of stock, slopes and the state of the track it's hard to predict.

I bet the original builder would have used a modern electric bike motor and batteries if they'd been available at the time.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 20/08/2019 14:21:55

Ron Laden20/08/2019 17:01:23
avatar
1307 forum posts
224 photos

The maths and calculations dont interest me that much to be honest I would rather go with what works in practice and a sprinkling of gut feeling. The loco in this thread is obviously quite a lump add to this a couple of riding cars and 10-12 passengers and for me 500 watts is not enough, yes it will run but I think it will be a bit gutless and it would certainly struggle with any inclines. If it were mine I wouldnt put less than a 1000 watts (1 1/4 HP) in it and I dont believe that is too much nor do I think that 2 HP is seriously over powered as was suggested.

Of course if it is to be run with just a single car, a driver and a couple of passengers then less power is possible but with it being 7 1/4 inch I imagine it running on a track were good numbers of passengers are carried.

terry callaghan20/08/2019 17:12:45
186 forum posts
5 photos

Hi Ron, I have know interest in pulling people around and the club I am a member of doesn’t do public running. Fitting a 1000w motor in place is not an issue. However the battery’s are. At the moment I am thinking 500w motor but still stuck with what battery or battery’s to use.

Ron Laden20/08/2019 17:22:04
avatar
1307 forum posts
224 photos

Thats fine then Terry go with what you feel will be about right for your type of running.

Tim Stevens20/08/2019 18:01:10
avatar
1056 forum posts

SoD says (above) - A 15 Ah battery can deliver 15 Amps for an hour.

Sorry, but this is based on a misunderstanding. It is true that a 15 Ah battery willl (should) deliver 1 Amp for 15 hours, but that is not the same thing. 15 Amps would overload a small battery, causing overheating, and likely damage to the plates, if continued more than a few minutes.

It is just one of life's (many) swindles, sorry.

Cheers, Tim

Dave Halford20/08/2019 18:04:20
439 forum posts
4 photos

There's what looks like old perished rubber cabling mixed with PVC, no idea what all the OTT twisted together wire is for. The engine may have been part way through a rebuild. There's a lot of reliance on airgaps for insulation.

I would take a motor off and look for the motor plate for the voltage, give the comm a shine with wet and dry and then try bench running it. There are so many Heath Robinson bodges on view and a full short across a 100A battery might be more exciting than you bargain for.

terry callaghan20/08/2019 18:45:35
186 forum posts
5 photos

Thanks Dave.i have removed both motors but there is nothing on them. I think it’s time for both of them to hit the bin. So far I am looking at a 500w motor to run the loco. My problem now is what battery’s to use. If I go for leisure battery’s I will be adding a ton of weight. If I go for more modern battery’s it’s a mine field. But if I am to keep it,I know I need to keep it simple. So chaps the question is what battery to run a 500w motor for say 3/4 of an hour. With one maybe two adults. Thanks.

SillyOldDuffer20/08/2019 19:09:36
4595 forum posts
987 photos
Posted by Tim Stevens on 20/08/2019 18:01:10:

SoD says (above) - A 15 Ah battery can deliver 15 Amps for an hour.

Sorry, but this is based on a misunderstanding. It is true that a 15 Ah battery willl (should) deliver 1 Amp for 15 hours, but that is not the same thing. 15 Amps would overload a small battery, causing overheating, and likely damage to the plates, if continued more than a few minutes.

It is just one of life's (many) swindles, sorry.

Cheers, Tim

Not quite, Terry mentioned using an ebilke battery. They're Lithium Ion high current batteries capable of delivering quite a wallop. This ebay example claims to be good up to 1200W.

Dave

Dave Halford20/08/2019 19:36:31
439 forum posts
4 photos
Posted by terry callaghan on 20/08/2019 18:45:35:

. My problem now is what battery’s to use. If I go for leisure battery’s I will be adding a ton of weight. If I go for more modern battery’s it’s a mine field. But if I am to keep it,I know I need to keep it simple. So chaps the question is what battery to run a 500w motor for say 3/4 of an hour. With one maybe two adults. Thanks.

That depends if you need the weight on the wheels for traction or not

not done it yet20/08/2019 21:27:56
3246 forum posts
11 photos
Posted by Tim Stevens on 20/08/2019 18:01:10:

SoD says (above) - A 15 Ah battery can deliver 15 Amps for an hour.

Sorry, but this is based on a misunderstanding. It is true that a 15 Ah battery willl (should) deliver 1 Amp for 15 hours, but that is not the same thing. 15 Amps would overload a small battery, causing overheating, and likely damage to the plates, if continued more than a few minutes.

It is just one of life's (many) swindles, sorry.

Cheers, Tim

Spot on regarding the hype. They should give a capacity at a particular discharge rate (and probably a final voltage, too).

Usual is C/20 discharge rate. Rate over 20 hours. Faster discharge means rather less capacity. Fully discharging also shortens the life of the battery. Lead acid technology needs careful attention for good battery life.

But, of course, Lithium ion batteries also require careful nursing to get the maximum from them. Battery management systems on electric cars is a must - then they will last years with heavy charge and discharge cycles. Your average cell phone or tablet battery won’t last as long for several reasons. Different chemistry, full charge/discharge cycles, and ‘china’ factors all help to destroy them in a relatively short time.

Ron Laden21/08/2019 15:07:08
avatar
1307 forum posts
224 photos
Posted by terry callaghan on 20/08/2019 18:45:35:

So chaps the question is what battery to run a 500w motor for say 3/4 of an hour. With one maybe two adults. Thanks.

Terry, what voltage is the 500 watt motor you are considering..?

terry callaghan21/08/2019 17:12:22
186 forum posts
5 photos

500w 36volts.

Robert Atkinson 221/08/2019 19:31:40
avatar
344 forum posts
21 photos

Allowing for losses and being conservative, three 18H 12V batteries would do assuming full load all the time. If you are optimistic then three 12AH would do.

However as noted above running a battery at it's 1H rate or faster is not good for it, Ii'd go for a bigger battery if you have space.

Three of these would be OK (I've never used this seller or brand) https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/6518/s/victron-energy-bat212200084/category/363/

Robert G8RPI.

All Topics | Latest Posts

Please login to post a reply.

Magazine Locator

Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!

Find Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop

Latest Forum Posts
Support Our Partners
Warco
Eccentric Engineering
ChesterUK
Ausee.com.au
TRANSWAVE Converters
Eccentric July 5 2018
Advertise With Us
Meridienne oct 2019
Allendale Electronics
emcomachinetools
Subscription Offer

Latest "For Sale" Ads
Latest "Wanted" Ads
Get In Touch!

Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?

You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.

Click THIS LINK for full contact details.

For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.

Digital Back Issues

Social Media online

'Like' us on Facebook
Follow us on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter
 Twitter Logo

Pin us on Pinterest