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My Faircut Lathe

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Andy Carlson23/09/2019 23:38:28
98 forum posts
53 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/09/2019 23:04:19:
Posted by Andy Carlson on 23/09/2019 22:47:11:

That said: I think it might be preferable to grasp the opportunity and adapt the headstock to take collets.

Long term I may well fit a collet chuck to the spindle nose thread but that will take time to do properly and I was hoping to be able to hold milling cutters and drills without going to those lengths. I have bought a cheap chinese ER16 holder which is MT1 at the back end. Seeing how badly that fitted into the spindle is how I got started on the taper investigation.

Going to those lengths will also throw up the dilemma of whether to fit an ER16 holder for which I already have a collet set or invest a good deal more money and buy another set of bigger collets... which is kinda why I want to avoid that question.

Michael Gilligan23/09/2019 23:50:14
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14134 forum posts
615 photos

I was actually thinking of boring-out the mystery taper and using draw-in collets

... But it's your lathe.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. yes

MichaelG.

Andy Carlson24/09/2019 08:14:19
98 forum posts
53 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/09/2019 23:50:14:

I was actually thinking of boring-out the mystery taper and using draw-in collets

... But it's your lathe.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. yes

Thanks Michael and thanks for your advice. I am thinking that if I take the boring tool to the spindle then it would be to bring the taper close enough to the correct angle for MT1 so that I could use a reamer. I would still need to check to make sure that this wouldn't leave the tooling too deep inside the spindle. My calculation is that the fat end would need to be 9.4 thou bigger diameter and the tooling would then be 4.8mm deeper into the taper which is quite a lot. At the moment I'm thinking it might be best to put this issue further down the queue and spend a bit longer thinking about it.

Andy Carlson27/09/2019 08:44:09
98 forum posts
53 photos

Yesterday evening I turned up a new soft centre to the measurements I'd taken from the headstock taper.

p1070049.jpg

After some trial and error I think I hit the calculated taper angle to within the accuracy that I can achieve but that might still not be the right answer...

The pointy end was turned down with the centre in the headstock once the taper had been done. Once I was past half way through this process I found that the centre was regularly breaking loose and it became rather a frustrating exercise for a while.

As the job progressed I spotted a problem - the cutting tool was slightly above centre (in my defence, bear in mind that up to this point I only had MT1 centres that did not fit the spindle properly and had visible runout at the tip). I corrected this and was able to complete the pointy end without any more breaking loose. I also pop marked it so that I can put it back in the spindle in the same position next time.

So how well does it fit? Initially it seemed to grip very well but the breaking loose did not inspire confidence. All of that mucking about has, however burnished the turning marks to show me where it is gripping and where it is not. The result surprised me a little.

The taper is roughly 2 inches long. At the thick end there is perhaps 1/4 inch which is inside the spindle taper but has not burnished. Then about an inch that is burnished. The remaining part of the thin end has much less burnishing.

This result puzzled me - I was expecting it to grip at either the thick end or the thin end depending on whether my angle was to steep or too shallow... but in fact it is gripping in the middle and at neither end. My theory to explain this is as follows...

The actual machined taper in the headstock is shallower than the taper on the centre but repeated use of MT1 tooling by a previous owner has worn the first 1/4 inch or so into a steeper taper. The upshot of this is that my measurement inside the taper was also wrong because the 'fat end' measurement was measuring inside the worn part.

At the moment I'm thinking that having an inch of the fattest usable part of the taper engaged is not so terrible for a dead centre so I'm not intending to have a second attempt. This should at least allow me to accurately set tools to centre height and do a much better check on the tailstock alignment than I've been able to manage so far.

The tailstock definitely aims low - that is clear from the behaviour when centre drilling but my previous attempts to check the alignment with two centres was inconclusive.

Given my conclusions about the state of the headstock taper I will abandon any thoughts of making a drill chuck arbor to fit. It will either be a collet chuck on the spindle thread or else re-machining the taper to MT1. I have no plans to attempt to machine the taper though until I have had a lot more practice at machining tapers accurately.

not done it yet27/09/2019 13:59:18
3477 forum posts
15 photos

Posted by Andy Carlson on 27/09/2019 08:44:09

...

I have no plans to attempt to machine the taper though until I have had a lot more practice at machining tapers accurately.

A good plan. Achieving the correct angle is easy enough - although perhaps tedious. Cut a socket (or more) and check with a known good Morse taper using engineer’s blue until you are confident the angle is exactly what is required. It is then only a case of attaining a good finish on the spindle and of the correct diameter at the nose.

BTW, any centre cut in the lathe chuck, should be as good as you can achieve by any other means - until you remove it from the chuck.

Andy Carlson27/09/2019 17:12:49
98 forum posts
53 photos

Posted by not done it yet on 27/09/2019 13:59:18:

A good plan. Achieving the correct angle is easy enough - although perhaps tedious. Cut a socket (or more) and check with a known good Morse taper using engineer’s blue until you are confident the angle is exactly what is required. It is then only a case of attaining a good finish on the spindle and of the correct diameter at the nose.

BTW, any centre cut in the lathe chuck, should be as good as you can achieve by any other means - until you remove it from the chuck.

I've ordered an MT1 finishing reamer to clean up the tailstock taper. When I get to the headstock taper I will use the finishing reamer after boring. I need 9.4 thou more diameter at the fat end to correct the taper but it's currently 11.7mm (0.460 in) so 15 thou below nominal size for MT1. The tailstock taper is also 11.7mm at the mouth, but apart from cleaning up the taper I will leave it below size.

I hope that the custom tapered soft centre will solve several issues - I can now set the tool height with more certainty and should be able to assess the tailstock alignment once my order for a new (and not blunt) MT1 centre arrives.

old mart27/09/2019 18:09:07
721 forum posts
64 photos

I was amazed to see that a motor manufactured in the USA some time ago would have a temperature in centigrade on it, even now they are the last bastion of Fahrenheit.

SillyOldDuffer27/09/2019 18:57:42
4785 forum posts
1011 photos
Posted by old mart on 27/09/2019 18:09:07:

I was amazed to see that a motor manufactured in the USA some time ago would have a temperature in centigrade on it, even now they are the last bastion of Fahrenheit.

Well spotted! As the motor is also 50Hz and does 240V, I guess it was made for the UK market, not the USA. WW2 Lend Lease perhaps?

Andy Carlson27/09/2019 19:37:08
98 forum posts
53 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/09/2019 18:57:42:
Posted by old mart on 27/09/2019 18:09:07:

I was amazed to see that a motor manufactured in the USA some time ago would have a temperature in centigrade on it, even now they are the last bastion of Fahrenheit.

Well spotted! As the motor is also 50Hz and does 240V, I guess it was made for the UK market, not the USA. WW2 Lend Lease perhaps?

I thought that strange but there are plenty of these motors still around in the US. Even the US ones have the temperature rise quoted in centigrade. The US ones are usually 110/220V and 60Hz. Several UK ones are 110/220V and 50Hz. I'm not sure that I've seen another 240V one so far.

The motor is hard to date but is definitely between 1915 and 1937. My suspicion based on design variations from similar motors is that it is around the middle 1920s. It is definitely older than the lathe so I suspect it was acquired second hand by the chap who bought the lathe new.

For anyone interested in donkeys' ages old motors, there is a Facebook group called 'Antique Electric Motor Experts'.

not done it yet27/09/2019 21:04:11
3477 forum posts
15 photos

More likely they were made before the US standardised on 60Hz? So closer to 1915 than 1937?

The UK was still on the Fahrenheit temperature scale back then - apart from enlightened scientists!

Andy Carlson27/09/2019 23:44:19
98 forum posts
53 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 27/09/2019 21:04:11:

More likely they were made before the US standardised on 60Hz? So closer to 1915 than 1937?

The UK was still on the Fahrenheit temperature scale back then - apart from enlightened scientists!

I suspect that Century were active in the UK and made motors specifically for this market. Scanning around the net also turns up examples in Australia.

There are design variations in these motors. One is only visible when you take the thing apart - the arrangement for tensioning the spring in the middle can be either a threaded collar with a locking clip or a (probably cheaper to make) simple 'C' shaped collar that fits into one of a choice of slots cut at intervals along the shaft. Mine has the latter which I think is a later cost saving arrangement.

There was one on eBay recently that has a slightly different casing - the three holes at the top of each end housing are omitted - presumably this reduces the amout of crud entering the motor... albeit at the cost of looking less stylish. My guess is that this is a later change. By the late 30s the casing was changed completely to something more sleek and less fussy. Shades of art nouveau vs art deco... if you can apply either term to motor design.

So my guess is that my motor sits somewhere in the middle of the time range... but it really is just a guess.

The lubrication arrangement also varies. Some have oil rings and some have wool packing. Mine has the latter but whether this tells us anything about date is not clear to me.

Andy Carlson29/09/2019 15:41:22
98 forum posts
53 photos

I used my Cowells to turn up a couple of brass lids for the Faircut headstock oilers.

p1070060.jpg

My previous lids were effective but hardly very pretty.

p1070061.jpg

Most of the lathe has now had at least a first round of cleaning to get rid of the buildup of rust. Now the machine looks rather less neglected.

p1070058.jpg

Brian Morehen16/10/2019 16:14:24
avatar
14 forum posts
6 photos

Hi Andy ,

I have a taper that fits my Faircut , have just it seems to fit ok It is 1 3/4 long from the end to the start of the point

the small end is 04.17 Thou Large End 05.37Thou .I hope this is of interest and willl make sense

Brian Morrehen

Brian Morehen16/10/2019 16:14:25
avatar
14 forum posts
6 photos

Hi Andy ,

I have a taper that fits my Faircut , have just it seems to fit ok It is 1 3/4 long from the end to the start of the point

the small end is 04.17 Thou Large End 05.37Thou .I hope this is of interest and willl make sense

Brian Morrehen

Andy Carlson16/10/2019 19:03:23
98 forum posts
53 photos

Thanks Brian... although I get a funny number from those measurements (1 in 14.6) which is very un-Morse.

I discovered a bit more while messing with my home made dead centre. After trying to make the taper better and instead making it worse I found that the actual usable part of my taper is probably in teh range 1 in 22.5 to 1 in 23. The portion at the small end is very damaged by scoring... so my attempts to measure the taper were measuring at two points, neither of which was on the usable part of the taper.

Basicaly it's a mess and at the moment only usable for running a custom made dead centre. I plan to bore it out to MT1 one day but not just yet. My external taper turning is getting better but I havent yet progressed to internal taper turning so need more practice before attempting such an important job.

PS: any photos of your lathe?

Regards, Andy

Brian Morehen17/10/2019 12:37:37
avatar
14 forum posts
6 photos

Hi Andy,

Hope this extra info makes sence on taper 13-63 mm or 0.537.5 thou 10.-43 mm or 0.416 thou.

Live in Cambridgeshire if any help I am willing to lend you this to make copy from.

Photo of Lathe Neil Wyatt has one If you have a mobile send me your No and i will text this to you My No

07811 306762 sounds like your having fun with your lathe.

Regards Brian

Andy Carlson17/10/2019 17:07:28
98 forum posts
53 photos

Thanks for the offer Brian. I think my headstock taper is both wrong for any known standard (probably from new because I cant imagine how it would have got such a strange taper afterwards) and also damaged so expecting anything to fit it correctly would be unreasonable.

My tailstock is now a reasonable fit for No 1 Morse (it wasnt far off anyway) since I used a finishing reamer on it. The headstock taper will need more than just a finishing reamer - it is rather further away from being correct.

Regards, Andy

Andy Carlson03/11/2019 18:00:20
98 forum posts
53 photos

A couple of updates. The first is not so much about the lathe itself but a picture of some actual work that I've produced on it. Inevitably the work involved was some parts for another machine - in this case a stepper mounting for the X axis on my Proxxon MF70

p1070093.jpg

Yesterday was a busy day... in the car driving through the rain rather than in the shed. I had to go up to East Yorkshire on a family errand so took the opportunity to go and see Steve King. Some folding stuff was exchanged for some lathe parts. I ended up leaving with rather more than I planned - almost everything except the lathe bed (I still needed room for 3 occupants and luggage on the way home).

p1070105.jpg

p1070104.jpg

The drive assembly was the main thing on my shopping list... and from that the critical part was the pulleys. I think that most of the assembly is non-Faircut stuff. Surprisingly it came apart today without too much of a fight and after cleaning the pulley casting I found a two digit number stamped into it so I think there is a good chance that this is a Faircut made part - the diameters certainly match the pulleys on the lathe. The red paint looks right too.

Inevitably the bore isn't the same as my existing countershaft diameter so I need to put my thinking cap on and decide whether to make some bushes or build a new assembly incorporating those interesting shaped brackets. Ideally I also want to move to a 7 or 8 inch 'V' pulley for the motor drive (with a single pulley on the motor shaft) to get the speeds close to what Faircut intended. I might just do the bushes for the time being and come up with a new plan once I have sourced the bigger 'V' pulley.

p1070113.jpg

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