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Total cost + import for Tormach PCNC 440, and alternatives?

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Ross Lloyd 124/06/2019 16:02:07
153 forum posts
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Hi

I already own a manual mill and lathe (warco Wm18 and warco WM250V)

I am now looking into buying a home CNC and the one that springs to mind is the tormach PCNC 440.

However, I see there is no UK or europe dealer, and as a result must factor in import costs. I think this boils down to two questions then really:

1) Has anyone recently imported a PCNC 440, that can provide an all-in cost for purchase and import duty / VAT / shipping / other hidden fees?

2) Are there alternatives? I looked at the Sieg KX1 but note arc euro trade dropped them as they are too hard to support. Are any of the Wabecos comparable to the 440? I would say all of the Haas's are out of my price range (their quote and price list pages refuse to work for me), lets say max £7000.

I could convert my WM18, but I'm not convinced I will end up with something too great as a result.

Thanks for reading

Edited By Ross Lloyd 1 on 24/06/2019 16:15:51

JasonB24/06/2019 16:34:12
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16279 forum posts
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You can still get KX1 and KX3 machines similar but not the same as the ones ARC sold from other suppliers and you may just get a Syil X4 at the top of your budget. Don't think a Tormach will be within budget.

Edited By JasonB on 24/06/2019 16:35:25

Andrew Evans24/06/2019 17:06:26
264 forum posts
1 photos

I think the Tormach machines are outside your budget - I think I have read more like £10000 by the time you have paid for shipping and import duty. There is at least 1 thread on here I think which talks about how to import one.

I have a KX3 which I am happy with - the Tormach does look better though, but it is twice the price.

The other option is a 2nd hand Denford Triac converted to Mach3, they are well built machines designed for schools / colleges with double nutted ball screws and you sometimes see them for sale - should be within your budget. Try the CNC UK forum or the Denford support forum as they sometimes are advertised there. They often come with tool changers as well.

Its not a cheap option whatever way you go - but with a 2nd hand machine you should get your money back if you find its not for you and decide to sell. 

Edited By Andrew Evans on 24/06/2019 17:09:53

Barrie Lever24/06/2019 17:06:58
323 forum posts
1 photos

Ross

The Tormac representation in Europe is not good, they use brand ambasidors but the one that I approched was not really happy with his Tormach 1100, I think he was misguided though.

I am pretty sure that the import duty is 8% on machine tools from the USA and the real killer is that you then have to pay 20% VAT on top of the total (machine, carriage, duty).

I think Tormachs are good if you can stomach the import hassles, they are not CE marked, not sure if that is a problem for you.

I ended up going for a Wabeco 1210 and I am happy with it, I use it most days for a mixture of fee paying work and hobby work.

£7000.00 will just get you going with a Wabeco but it will not be on a stand or anything like that. Wabeco also do CNC prepared machines, that is where the machine has stepper motors fitted but no controls, so you can use what ever controls you want.

If you are prepared to travel to Hampshire, you can see my Wabeco in action.

I am pretty sure that new Haas Mini Mills start at Circa £20K, there was a guy selling a very well speced Wabeco on Ebay about a month ago, dont think it sold though.

Regards

Barrie

Andrew Evans24/06/2019 17:11:24
264 forum posts
1 photos

I am happy if you wanted to have a look at my Sieg KX3 - I am in York

Andrew Evans24/06/2019 17:13:30
264 forum posts
1 photos

Its not ideal having a 'brand ambassador' that isn't happy with the product. To be fair everything I have read about Tormach is positive.

Barrie Lever24/06/2019 17:53:38
323 forum posts
1 photos

Andrew

Yes not an ideal situation, they really need someone in Northern Europe who is a bit more connected with the factory and is willing to demonstrate the machines.

Like any product you hear good and bad, but the balance for Tormach is good. I would buy one in the right situation.

My only concern is that their very latest machine 1100 something or another is closing in pricewise to a Haas Mini Mill.

B.

geoff adams24/06/2019 18:45:01
123 forum posts
134 photos

i have both a tormach 1100 and a syil x4 with 4th axis brought from new i was lucky to get my tormach second hand in the uk for £3500 came with loads of tooling vice probe etc . my first mill was a warco vm18 converted to cnc ok but have to be conservative with depth of cut and feed rates the x4 is a lot more solid machine i tend to use this for the 4th axis work use the tormach on a daily basis the tormach is a step up from hobby use. A lot depends on what you want to make and material how much space you have for me it would be the tormach i have mine in a 8x6 garden shed

as Jason said you can get an x4 for £7000 second hand tormachs in the uk are very rare

hope this helps Geoff

Alan Wood 425/06/2019 09:17:26
124 forum posts
4 photos

Importing a Tormach to UK is straightforward using ACC Worldwide in Kent who are the preferred agent used by Tormach. They arrange everything and you can track your delivery all the way to your doorstep.

Tormach products are not CE approved but this is not an issue if you are going to use it for your own non commercial use.

The 440 is a 120V AC product and you will need a transformer which is not a problem with many potential suppliers. I use one from RS product.

Due to the US hike in import duties of products from China the prices have risen on the Tormach products. You can find my spreadsheet with the latest prices list costs of all the Tormach mills and accessories on my blog via this link.

http://altrish.co.uk/2019/01/02/tormach-costing-sheet-update/

The sheet gives you a full landed costing into UK and you can change the F/X to current market rate. There are quite a few other posts on the blog relating to the Tormach use. Note that as yet there is no 4th axis facility on the 440 but it is road mapped and there are other ways to address this should it be a requirement.

I bought and imported a 440 around 3 years ago and have not had any problems with it. The key aspects that swayed me were their PathPilot software which is excellent to use and the depth of support on my lack of CNC knowledge both direct from Tormach and from the many forums. PathPilot is addressed directly from Fusion 360 which in turn has integrated CAM and does not cost you anything as a private non commercial user.

I would be more than happy to demonstrate the machine to you or others on receipt of a PM request. I am in the Newbury area of UK.

 

Edited By Alan Wood 4 on 25/06/2019 09:19:34

John Haine25/06/2019 10:20:14
2610 forum posts
133 photos

+1 for Denford. Though long in the tooth now there are many ex-school machines around with little use, and they are easy to upgrade to modern electronics and controller. A better bet than converting a manual mill IMHO. My Novamill cost £660 for the mechanics and under £200 for the controller bits, or you can buy a ready built controller for a reasonable price.

Nick Hughes25/06/2019 11:16:33
avatar
201 forum posts
130 photos

Based on my personal experience of a Syil X5 Plus, I would recommend that you keep away from them.

The factory QC was non existant as you can see here (The Saddle fitted to my X5)

20161209_102838.jpg

This was replaced eventualy (took over 6 months), but I had to buy a precision granite square, to check and set the X-Y axis geometry and am now in the middle of stripping the Z axis, to correct the fore-aft lean in the column.

The final problem is the lack of support, not from the UK agent (they appear to have the same problems getting parts from China), but Syil in China. I am still waiting after 2 plus years for a replacement board, that was faulty from the start and even after trying to buy a replacement directly from China and getting a price off them, they stopped responding to my emails.

Barrie Lever25/06/2019 11:21:10
323 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 25/06/2019 09:17:26:

Importing a Tormach to UK is straightforward using ACC Worldwide in Kent who are the preferred agent used by Tormach. They arrange everything and you can track your delivery all the way to your doorstep.

Tormach products are not CE approved but this is not an issue if you are going to use it for your own non commercial use.

The 440 is a 120V AC product and you will need a transformer which is not a problem with many potential suppliers. I use one from RS product.

Due to the US hike in import duties of products from China the prices have risen on the Tormach products. You can find my spreadsheet with the latest prices list costs of all the Tormach mills and accessories on my blog via this link.

**LINK**

The sheet gives you a full landed costing into UK and you can change the F/X to current market rate. There are quite a few other posts on the blog relating to the Tormach use. Note that as yet there is no 4th axis facility on the 440 but it is road mapped and there are other ways to address this should it be a requirement.

I bought and imported a 440 around 3 years ago and have not had any problems with it. The key aspects that swayed me were their PathPilot software which is excellent to use and the depth of support on my lack of CNC knowledge both direct from Tormach and from the many forums. PathPilot is addressed directly from Fusion 360 which in turn has integrated CAM and does not cost you anything as a private non commercial user.

I would be more than happy to demonstrate the machine to you or others on receipt of a PM request. I am in the Newbury area of UK.

Edited By Alan Wood 4 on 25/06/2019 09:19:34

Alan

Very useful information, the price always mounts up when you start adding tooling etc.

B.

Ross Lloyd 130/06/2019 15:42:00
153 forum posts
1 photos

Thank you for all the input gents

After much toing and froing and taking into account the advice here, I am now starting to lean back towards converting the WM18 again, based on the articles ran in Model Engineer.

Will probably make a new post to ask more!

Cheers

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