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will there be enough?

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pgk pgk14/06/2019 15:52:52
1499 forum posts
285 photos
Posted by Bazyle on 14/06/2019 10:37:31:

One solution to the range problem for EVs might be to only allow them to be made with say 100km range for lightness and hence efficiency but arrange for small power trailers with say a 3ookm range that you hire part way down the motorway. It would power you while also charging your internal battery and you would drop it off 50km from your destination. To combat a shortage/pile of them in the wrong place the remaining diesel trucks running in the opposite direction would receive a small payment for pulling a train of half a dozen to another location, perhaps recharging them a bit with regenerative braking on the downhills.

Another big change is needed in planning for domestic solar and wind. I have room for both but National Parks would stamp on the idea and anyway the application fee alone would be about ten years electricity cost after allowing for interest on the expenditure let alone capital repayment.

Tesla's original plan was battery swapping and the cars were designed for that to be an automated process taking less than a few minutes. I undertand they did build one swap-facility before abandoning the proposition (reason unknown)

Either the public shells out for longer battery life, accepts the need for stops on those relatively rare long trips UK or we go back to car-trains. Battery prices have come down lots as mentioned earlier $100/KWh is close now with efficiencies meaning upto 4 miles/KWh on the way - pick your pack size.

I've also got 2 south-facing slopes with enough acreage on them for 3MW of solar panels. Quite apart from the unlikelihood of getting planning I might live long enough to see the payback but unlikely to be in a position to enjoy it...


Bob Brown 114/06/2019 16:03:40
992 forum posts
125 photos

A solar energy calculator **LINK**

Nigel Graham 214/06/2019 16:20:44
452 forum posts

The problem with any sort of interchangeable battery scheme even if the batteries and vehicles are all sufficiently cloned to allow it, is that vastly more batteries than vehicles would be needed; and they'd still need augmenting by chargers for the cars themselves.

A point lost on those pushing to have us all drive battery-only cars, is that presently we enjoy the opportunity and often the need, to travel where and when we wish, sometimes at short notice. Going all-EV will curtail this freedom drastically, and even for those fortunate still to be able to have a car at all, schemes like battery-swapping or car-borrowing (hiring, more likely,??? ), would only worsen that situation.

Eventually, fossil-sources of fuels will run out, via scarcity that pushes the price way up, but with such depletion will also come the loss of so many materials we take for granted that our loss of being able to drive freely will seem a minor point compared to the far greater losses overall.

I foresee society reverting over the next century or so to something closer to 200 years ago now: very isolated communities with limited creature-comforts and little mutual contact. Someone a while back here wondered what the portable 'phone might transform into by then. History, I think, there being nothing left to make it from.

Frances IoM14/06/2019 16:48:53
669 forum posts
24 photos
yes we could go back to 200yrs ago - minor problem is the disposal of maybe 4billion people - maybe a few unchecked epidemics or a war in some heavily populated but isolated area would suffice.
Bob Brown 114/06/2019 17:00:56
992 forum posts
125 photos

Just shrink the population as it is out of control population growth

Nigel Graham 214/06/2019 17:16:08
452 forum posts


That is rather unworthy, and certainly not what I either meant or implied.

I was commenting on styles of living, not numbers of the living.

Bob -

Yes, I think many do say that but it's politically a very sensitive area so politicians tend to ignore it. The People Republic of China tried limiting its own population expansion but subsequently realised that policy brought serious problems of its own.

pgk pgk14/06/2019 17:51:34
1499 forum posts
285 photos

I don't think anyone here is pushing you into EV.. it's more a case of it'll be that or hydrogen or no car.
As for society coming to any great isolation with fewer cars - there's no reason for that to happen. It was only 60 years ago that folk owning cars were relatively uncommon - they were only starting to talk about the need for the M1.
I clearly recall going to school by bus as did most folk who travelled where i lived and the myriad bicycles on the roads being used for a few miles of commute. It was that or the pre-Beeching trains. We've become a greedy society making lots of really unnecesary journeys often just for minor social and pleasure reasons and for an item or two of shopping.
If anything we've lost a lot of neigbourliness and community in the process and there's probably more folk isolated at home because they don't know folk locally - all part of centralising schools, hospitals and so forth in the name of efficiency and profit and opening stores 24/7 to encourage folk to part with money.

Nigel Graham 214/06/2019 21:01:58
452 forum posts

I realise that is so, PGK, but the nub of the problem lies in your last paragraph.

So many have come, or been forced, to accept all the services they need are fewer and more scattered, and is not just for bureaucratic convenience. It also the result of heavy commercial convenience and its synthetic "now-we-all" policy by vicious-circle.

It means so many people have no choice but to drive, possibly fair distances, to shop, to work, to find a bank or post-office, attend a hospital, for their children's schools, etc. etc.

So towns and villages lose their own services; so the residents have to use their cars. Consequently, bus companies cannot afford these routes because too few people use them; everything becomes diffuse and isolating. Whilst it is up to individuals to form their own social circles their chances are slimmed because there are now far fewer local shops, pubs, schools, libraries, banks, etc. fulfilling their everyday needs. (The banks are a case in point - "everyone uses internet banking they bleat" - yes, part of the banks' policy to close branches.)

You say we make unecessary social journeys - well, in other words let's all stay at home? That's not isolating?

Anyway, members of a specialist forum like this cannot criticise anyone else's social lives, given we like to travel to club meetings and tracks, exhibitions, rallies and so on. Just as others like to travel to play sports, visit theatres, go fishing or hill-walking or whatever. (And in my case caving - the hills or caves you wish to visit, or the football matches you want to watch, may a hundred miles or more away, though the sports grounds might still be in public transport reach.)

The TV and Internet are no substitute if you want a pursuit or social life your locality does not support. Yes, if we can afford an electric or more remotely, hydrogen-fuelled car, we can still drive to the nearest supermarket maybe only 20 miles away; to work assuming we have found employment, to the doctor, dentist or hospital if one exists anywhere near.

Whether we'd have any reason to travel anywhere else is another matter because I think one effect of all these environmental policies will be the slow destruction of vast swathes of the country's cultural and social activities, save perhaps for commercial arts and sports events within cities.

For anyone else, certainly outside of major towns, I see no guarantee whatsoever that their lives won't become limited to a very parochial existence with limited interest and social lives; leaving home only for the necessary shopping. They'd be lucky even to have a pub in which to reminisce to each other about once being able to go hill-walking, watch sports matches, rally miniature steam-engines...

In other words, back to at least the situation you cite of 60 years ago. In fact worse when even the "item or two of shopping" is now miles away, thanks to the supermarkets deliberately destroying the local shops just as officialdom is destroying local public services; the former also for profit, but both to suit centralising planned by remote spread-sheet jockeys and commercial estate-agents.


it's all very well saying what people did 60 years ago, but what they could have done, or had to do then, is now no longer possible for many people; and there is no political will or wish to repair that damage.

Michael Gilligan26/06/2019 09:28:00
14536 forum posts
632 photos


Nigel Graham 226/06/2019 09:46:04
452 forum posts

All very well but there will still come a time when the old batteries are beyond use, so what then? How recoverable are their materials, including the case, which I assume are some form of plastic?

pgk pgk26/06/2019 09:59:59
1499 forum posts
285 photos
Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 26/06/2019 09:46:04:

All very well but there will still come a time when the old batteries are beyond use, so what then? How recoverable are their materials, including the case, which I assume are some form of plastic?

J Hancock26/06/2019 10:34:22
329 forum posts

How ironic that the 'primitive' people survived, through an acceptance of 'sustainability ' being of the prime importance and we, the 'clever' ones , believe that compound growth is infinitely possible.

The Genii of the Industrial Revolution is out of the bottle, now everyone wants it and it is out of control.

Martin Kyte26/06/2019 11:58:37
1530 forum posts
24 photos

The first thing I would do for an electric vehicle is ensure that the bonnet and roof are themselves photo-voltaic. Most cars spend much of their days outside so why not harvest what you can. It's not going to make the vehicle self sustaining but it reduces the overall charging burden.

I will make one prediction though and that is the next generation battery technology is likely to be designed around synthetic biological systems.

regards Martin

not done it yet26/06/2019 12:19:01
3733 forum posts
15 photos

What you need is a “Lightyear” Just been unveiled but obviously nowhere near in production. Promises to be the most economical car for cost of distance per unit of energy, if it ever gets off the ground as a going concern.

I am guessing the technology will be bought by a larger car manufacturer when their development costs become a limiting factor.

Fully Charged have just put up a video on it.

pgk pgk26/06/2019 13:21:01
1499 forum posts
285 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 26/06/2019 12:19:01:

What you need is a “Lightyear” Just been unveiled but obviously nowhere near in production. Promises to be the most economical car for cost of distance per unit of energy, if it ever gets off the ground as a going concern.

I am guessing the technology will be bought by a larger car manufacturer when their development costs become a limiting factor.

Fully Charged have just put up a video on it.

An interesting vehicle and the WH/Km look really good. However figures like that mean little unless one knows at what speed. The solar roof is hardly a unique idea - Toyota Prius did that - although panels are now a tad more efficient. Of course their harvesting figures will be based on parking away from shadows and trees so sadly not always as practical. Nevertheless it's another entrant in the field and should be applauded if it measures up.

As per the vid I posted's also a case of who can make enough batteries and on which technology to power the revolution.

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