|Paul Kemp||20/05/2019 13:34:27|
|308 forum posts|
But, the "Hanging is too good for them" side of the debate need to take stock and think well on such pronouncements.
Well I guess I am guilty of tending towards the above group. My frustration really originates from the 'modern' expectation that the criminal justice system is veiwed by the more liberally minded as a substitute for the inability of society to instill proper morals within itself. I am afraid my view is the penal system should provide deterrent and punishment for those that refuse to conform to the majority accepted standard of respect for others and the basic premis of right and wrong. The expectation of that function being performed by the penal system will not reduce offences. It's locking the door after the horse has gone! I have a major problem with human rights for offenders, they make a choice be it conscious or unconscious to commit these acts, when they do they should accept the normal priveledges associated with liberty and respect of their rights are removed. In carrying out the act these morons did they had no respect for the efforts or time expended by the owners of the property they destroyed. No amount of money can replace that time and effort and the psychological effect on the victims will be immense. The expectation that a short or soft response by the court attached to some love and forgiveness will turn these people around is naive. Society itself as Neil suggests needs to look in the mirror and govern itself to produce moral upstanding citizens. The courts should deliver retribution to those that fail to respond. The very way society as whole is being manoeuvred by marketing and commercialism to create the desire to have the latest fashions in clothes and gadgets is not helping!
I refuse to accept that these poor misguided individuals have not experienced at any time in ther short lives any positive examples of right and wrong, I also very much doubt they have any shred of remorse and if reading any comment on line regarding this incident they will probably be revelling in the 'fame'. They did the crime, they should be sanctioned, not rewarded.
|260 forum posts|
While in no way condoning the behaviour of these youths, I have a glimmer of understanding how their behaviour may have been influenced by an internal rage magnified by mob spirit.
Before I retired, for a number of years I taught technology and science to teenagers in pupil referral units and special schools (I still volunteer one day a week). When one learns of the unspeakable physical, emotional and spiritual damage caused to some of these youngsters by the adults in their lives, it it surprising that they turn out as well as they do.
By the way, 'technology' often would be better described as 'therapeutic woodwork' as some youngsters are helped more by spending an hour drilling holes or banging nails into a lump of wood than by any formal or structured approach, Ofsted be blowed.
When you point out that they can now knock a nail in straight or drill a hole without splitting the wood it is often the first positive thing they have heard all day. Making some small trinket, no matter how rough and ready, is often the first success they have felt, and some feel huge pride in taking it home to Mum - the ones, that is, who aren't prevented by a legal injunction from entering their mother's home..
Society is producing more and more damaged youngsters, and is not making anywhere near enough special provision to prevent the damage or rectify it after it's done. Our political masters - of all hues - remain determined to force all young people into the same educational Procrustean Bed, and it doesn't work. I'd better get off my horse now before I start on Gove and his so-called "English Baccalaureate" which is designed to turn them all into middle-class grammar school kids with a nice classical education, unsullied by any creative, constructive or artistic influence whatever.
I shall watch the fate of these four youths with interest. It could still turn out that they are just spoiled and selfish brats.
|Frances IoM||20/05/2019 14:01:28|
|643 forum posts|
|Such vandalism by youngsters is not exactly unknown - during research on other topics I have been reading through the WW1 diaries of the Douglas (IoM) chief constable - many examples of youngsters (aged 8 upwards) breaking into shops etc usually looking for money but also wrecking the contents - generally they were found within a day of the report, in Court that day or the next and often sentenced to be birched (this continued on IoM until early 70s) or for repeat performances sent to English 'industrial schools' or reformatories - I think there has been a PhD research project to follow up these boys - I'll ask around but in the 1970s research suggested the birch wasn't really a deterrent) but I suspect what helped was the post WW1 strong support for football clubs etc - the fast response was due to the 'embedded' nature of the police constables who quickly heard who was involved + probably the 'vigorous' questioning thereof. Of course in mid 1800s the court just gave those 14 or older a oneway ticket to sunny Australia if any item worth 6d or more was involved.|
|Mike Poole||20/05/2019 14:14:49|
2115 forum posts
My wife was involved in one of our village playgroups when our boys were young, we still have their creations somewhere, my wife witnessed one of the parents put their child’s work straight in the bin, I don’t know what that behaviour does to a child but I am sure it can’t be positive. I am sure most of us have been involved in youthful pranks that do not involve mindless destruction but are probably irritating to the victim, I am thinking of stunts like taking someone’s gates for a walk down the road and stuff like that where no permanent damage is done but is likely to be very annoying to the victim.
|4719 forum posts|
Is it possible those in favour of severe punishments have more in common with these youths than they might care to admit? Bunch of stupid lads cause pain by wrecking an exhibition, and we have grown-up forum members wanting to inflict: a fall down stairs, the stocks, 100 lashes, castration, being not allowed to live, bread and water, being whipped with red-hot barbed wire, the birch, and denial of Human Rights. (Human Rights protect citizens from the State; think disappearances, torture, arrest without trial and genocide. They are not to be dismissed lightly.)
I'd be all for brutal punishments if they worked. But they don't. Apparently Stalin had about 70 officials shot after a railway accident. Well they won't do that again.
Part of the problem with lashing out is it ignores motive, which includes the possibility of mental illness. National Audit Office report on British prisons:
'Rates of self-inflicted deaths and self-harm in prison have risen significantly in the last five years, suggesting that mental health and well-being in prison has declined. Self-harm rose by 73% between 2012 and 2016. In 2016 there were 40,161 incidents of self-harm in prisons, the equivalent of one incident for every two prisoners. While in 2016 there were 120 self-inflicted deaths in prison, almost twice the number in 2012, and the highest year on record. Government needs to address the rising rates of suicide and self harm in prisons as a matter of urgency.
In 2016, the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman found that 70% of prisoners who had committed suicide between 2012 and 2014 had mental health needs.'
It is a fantasy that Prison is an easy ride. They do allow criminals to network and exchange skills.
Only severe punishment will correct the distorted mindset of draconian forum members. You are all sentenced to read nothing but the Guardian for one year and strictly forbidden to read the Daily Mail ever again...
To be clear, I have no sympathy with the perpetrators. I don't know anything about them. It's the job of the courts to assess the facts and decide their future, not inflamed public opinion.
574 forum posts
I have travelled the world and spent considerable time in most European countries excluding Skandinavia.
IMHO, wanton vandalism ie destruction of actual property rather than graffitti etc is pretty much a unique British thing.
I have not seen mindless violence/property destruction on a remotely similar scale anywhere in Western Europe.
Another British disease?
|Speedy Builder5||20/05/2019 15:09:12|
|1820 forum posts|
Thaiguzzi. De-forrestation, Palm oil plantations ....... its all vandalism.
|Howard Lewis||20/05/2019 15:12:32|
|2341 forum posts|
The wish for draconian punishments is fuelled by the anger at the destruction of so many years work and skill.
What brings folk to such acts is a lack of knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. This stems from poor parenting, and poor peers, for whatever reason.
My wife was a teacher in a Special Unit. One year in the run up to Christmas she witnessed two children "putting a baby to bed". One child kissed and cooed over the infant, (came from a poor but obviously loving home). The other flung the baby into the cot, with garbled mouthings equating to "shut up and don't be a nuisance, or you'll get it".
Her description of the home from which the child came almost defies imagination. She gave the child a soft toy. At the court hearing about taking the children into care, the child was clutching the toy as if his life depended on it.
From such a background, it is small wonder that they are odds with society. What we all take for granted, as "normal" is beyond their imagination or understanding. Equally, we find it difficult to imagine what is in their minds; hence extreme anger at such behaviour. Literally poles apart.
Bringing knowledge of each to the other is not impossible, but a very difficult and demanding task.
As Mike Poole says, the realisation of what is involved in making what the vandals have destroyed, could be the start of the road to their salvation from a wasted life.
785 forum posts
This and other crimes are awarded community service as punishment, the theory being that the miscreants can in some way make recompense to society in general by carrying out community work. The theory has some merit but the reality is far different. A few years ago I was Churchwarden at our local church and the probation service who then organised community service agreed to send a number of those sentenced to community service to mow the grass in our rather large churchyard. Those detailed to carry out the task arrived on site, were briefed by a supervisor on what they had to do and provided with the mowers and petrol and the supervisor then left the site to go onto another group. As soon as the supervisor left the site the petrol was poured away and those remaining then focussed their attention on trying to break into the church to find something worth stealing. Needless to say we called a halt to accepting any further community service, our whole justice system appears to be in crisis with ineffective management from the top down. Unfortunately there are far too many do-gooders in our society who have too much influence in setting out our justice system. The current situation is a reflection of how broken our whole social system is, nothing is considered unless there is a profit at the end of the process. The austerity of the last ten years has accelerated the decline and problems our infrastructure is crumbling because of lack of investment. Sadly there was another example of extreme vandalism this last weekend when the Heathfield Agricultural Show here in East Sussex suffered an attack and the sidewalls of a number of large marquees were slashed during the night, causing many thousands of pounds worth of damage, inevitably insurance companies will pick up the bill and we will all pay through higher insurance premiums in the future.
|Michael Gilligan||20/05/2019 16:50:36|
14023 forum posts
There is more than a glimmer of truth in 'Gee Officer Krupke!" **LINK**
|338 forum posts|
Its heartening to see some of the later posts advocating a more balanced approach to the problem. But again the solutions revolve around money and more importantly effective management of any restorative or community punishment. As SOD said as soon as the parole guys back was turned they revert to type.
Until we end austerity and actually invest in something that's not a HS 2 waste of money etc. We will carry on seeing similar stories as the youth are left high and dry.
We made the conscious decision not to have children 30 years ago because of the state of the world then, just look at it now!
It's an intractable problem but I think its refreshing to chat about it here in a measured way.
|Former Member||20/05/2019 17:52:02|
[This posting has been removed]
|Neil Wyatt||20/05/2019 18:28:10|
16579 forum posts
This is very sad. I saw a group of 'young adults' doing community service at an allotments. They had cleared a whole box-back transit load of rubbish and their banter appeared to suggest they were actually pleased with what they'd done. Probably because the supervisor was treating them like they were doing a useful job.
I imagine this is the sort of thing that has been hit by the problems with probation services.
|Barrie Lever||20/05/2019 19:09:01|
|323 forum posts|
I agree that we need to invest for the future, but surely technology projects like HS2 are more likely to produce higher paid jobs than flipping burgers or doing some flunky job like graphic design.
My belief is that the only way to truely create wealth and prosperity is by manufacturing, if 'Henry Ford' does not build the car then you don't need any of the service industries like insurance, sales and finance.
Whilst I have been accused of holding Republican views I never bought into that service industry rubbish that was being peddled in the 80's.
I often jokingly say to kids that they need to get into the truck axle business because everyone needs a truck axle, they look preplexed, I then say how is your phone or latest gadget going to get delivered unless someone builds a truck axle !!
I think HS2 falls into the same meaninginful business arena.
96 forum posts
The sentences these poor specimen of mankind getting is a worldwide phenomenon, and in my opinion the problem lies with the human rights bullshit, Animals have rights and humans have privileges with inseparably accountability Sentencing such conduct should be harsh to these maggots who can't create anything for themselves only destruct and destroy what others have achieved
I can say "my condolence i feel for thee"
|paul rayner||20/05/2019 20:22:49|
|124 forum posts|
yes I agree with a lot of what the forum members are saying BUT,
I had nothing when I was a kid.
I know what is right and what is wrong.
I chose which path I traveled down.
|vintage engineer||20/05/2019 20:23:53|
179 forum posts
When I was younger I grew up overseas and I deviated from the correct path. I was sentenced to receive 6 "Cuts" at the local Police Station with a Doctor present.
I have never strayed since and most of the people who received similar punishment didn't either! It did work and word spread around school about the results of the punishment!
|Former Member||20/05/2019 20:28:28|
[This posting has been removed]
|4719 forum posts|
Specifically which of the Articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights do you object to? They seem harmless enough to me.
Inverting a few articles might give a better sense of what they're about, for example:
No doubt Human Rights are imperfect but I submit we are better off with them than without.
|ronan walsh||20/05/2019 22:21:34|
|539 forum posts|
So would you be all for the returning ISIS fighters to be given a council flat and generous social welfare payments ? Because thats what the liberal human rights nuts are fighting for.
This thread is closed.
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