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2 pack, enamel...paint advice please!

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choochoo_baloo03/04/2019 17:34:51
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201 forum posts
39 photos

Dear all,

I'm hoping to strip and repaint some generally knackered machinery panels from a machine tool. I just telephoned a reputable local automative paint shop, and they advised the following. I am hoping for concise advice on how to proceed:

  • 2 Pack will give a much more durable finish than a traditional enamel.
  • 2 Pack requires an air fed respirator - isocyanate hardener
  • The gun (Devilbiss type brand ~£300) + respirator will requires a 12-16 CFM delivered compressor
  • For quality brands, the above + sundries would come to ~£1000

First off, I cannot afford £1000 worth. Furthermore I struggle to accept most home workshop-ers have spent this much for odd job repainting!

I am all for doing things properly (and certainly with the isocyanate - being safe), but my queries to you chaps are:

1. Is 2 pack overkill, given that a lot of the recommended paint suppliers on this forum still produce enamels? Will a filter regulator suffice for enamels>

2. What results can I expect to achieve with my current 5.6 CFM compressor + water trap/regulator + a starter Devilbiss gun (~£70)?

Thanks in advance.

David George 103/04/2019 18:02:30
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977 forum posts
314 photos

There is a company near me, ( Dacylate Paints ) who have a machinery enamel which I would recommend. it is brushable and sprayable in any colour.

David

Nicholas Wheeler 103/04/2019 18:13:32
279 forum posts
16 photos

I'm terrible with a brush, so several coats of enamel are not an option. Nor is the sheer amount of time required for each coat to go off.

I'm not likely to paint a machine tool, but it would be done with 2 pack if I ever did.

Why do you need such expensive equipment? Small surfaces can be done with an appropriate respirator, which all the paint supplier will sell for about £30 with filters.

This was painted with a tired 30 year old £200 compressor and a £25 LVLP gun and 1mm nozzle:

painted.jpg

2 coats, wet on wet and I spent more time cleaning the gun than I did applying the paint. I mixed 1/4 litre(about £10 worth), and it did that panel and a wing. Unmasked it about 40 minutes after painting, although it was a hot day.

With 2 pack, you could filler prime, rub down, spot prime, top coat and unmask all on the same day.

Jeff Dayman03/04/2019 19:51:43
1662 forum posts
44 photos

Good heavens man! how'd you end up with the paint all wrinkled on the door! and the overspray on the windows will be a heck of a job to get off!

(just kidding- looks great!)

Phil Whitley03/04/2019 20:14:36
951 forum posts
131 photos

I spray if I want a real shine, but for most machinery, I use a roller, either foam, or flock, flock covers easier, and just use an oil resistant single pack machinery enamel, like Tractol, or Paragon enamel, used with white spirit or naptha as a thinner and cleaner. Dont bother cleaning the roller between coats, just wrap it in a polythene carrier bag, and reuse the next day, then discard the roller when finished. The thinner used to clean the roller is a lot more expensive than the new roller. The ones I use are about 100mm by 30mm, and it is surprising what an excellent gloss can be obtained very quickly with minimum effort. Paint finish is all in the prep. filler and several coats of primer, let it dry thoroughly, then wet flat, or dry denib if you cant be bothered, and gloss it! The problem with a perfect paint job is that first scratch, learn to live with it, or just look at the machine, but don't ever use it again!!

Peter F03/04/2019 20:58:33
98 forum posts
23 photos

When I left school 17 years ago I spent 2 years at college training as a panel beater and painter, I can offer you this advice,

By Enamel do you just mean gloss top coat? this would be a 2k gloss Acrylic top coat you want.

If you're not spraying in an enclosed area you can use one of these Gerson masks (not inside a small shed)

**LINK**

High end spray guns are needed for high end paints, IE water based base coats, being very thin they need excellent atomisation, the low pressure spraying (HVLP) is for material being more efficiently put on the panel, completely unnecessary for home gamers, they are air hungry as the name implies, so avoid them.

Avoid the starter Devilbis gun, they sell a cheap one that is not made by them, and is no better than a 25 quid job from machine mart.

Using a Gerson mask and standard gun (non HVLP) you can spray with your small compressor, you may have to pause for it to catch up while you're spraying. but for a few small panels, this shouldn't be a problem.

If you want some more advice on which gun to buy, let me know.

Boiler Bri03/04/2019 21:10:37
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812 forum posts
287 photos

I have just been painting my 4" traction engine. I primed it using Halfords spray cans. Then used H and M tins of spray paint. Self levelling enamel. I had ordered these. These are great. One light coat and leave it for 15 minutes. Then re coat and repeat after about the same time. The results are great. However. I am not one for too much preparation, small blemishes show through easily. I also always wash the parts before painting in petrol. One small bit of grease and the paint leaves small craters. I never use tack rags ether. Once washed a quick blow with the air line and off we go. As mentioned. Functionality is more important to me than show finish.

Then you put it all back together and knock chip and scratch your lovely finish 😂

My 5" Brittania got the same treatment

Bri

 

 

Edited By Boiler Bri on 03/04/2019 21:13:26

Alan Waddington 203/04/2019 22:32:18
448 forum posts
86 photos

.As per David’s post, Dacrylate sprays lovely, Thinner is Xylene, (badged as R5 by Dacrylate.) Just wear a decent filter mask.

Like most xylene based paints, you have to recoat within a couple of hours, or leave for a couple of days between coats, or it crizzles.

i found a quick light tack coat, leave 20 mins ( depends on temp) to dry, followed by a heavier coat, and a final coat thinned down a bit more works a treat.

You can get a decent finish straight from the gun, but i let the paint harden for a week and then flatted with 1500 wet and dry, and polished with a rotary polisher using Farecla G3, much like you would with car paint,

It has good resistance to oils and cutting fluids etc and is pretty tough.

Nicholas Wheeler 103/04/2019 22:49:41
279 forum posts
16 photos
Posted by Peter F on 03/04/2019 20:58:33:

High end spray guns are needed for high end paints, IE water based base coats, being very thin they need excellent atomisation, the low pressure spraying (HVLP) is for material being more efficiently put on the panel, completely unnecessary for home gamers, they are air hungry as the name implies, so avoid them.

Avoid the starter Devilbis gun, they sell a cheap one that is not made by them, and is no better than a 25 quid job from machine mart.

Using a Gerson mask and standard gun (non HVLP) you can spray with your small compressor, you may have to pause for it to catch up while you're spraying. but for a few small panels, this shouldn't be a problem.

The advantages of HVLP guns are just as relevant for home use as they are for commercial: virtually everything that comes out the tip goes on the part. So there's much less cleanup, very little overspray, you can see what you're doing as there isn't a cloud of paint hanging about, the paint is very finely atomised and it doesn't bounce off the part. And you need less paint! I make no claim to be a painter as I don't do very much, but a cheap HVLP gun and 2k paint(compared to a traditional gun and cellulose) transformed my work. Applying just two coats dramatically reduces the chance of cocking up, and if I don't get any runs flatting and polishing isn't necessary: here's the gun finish a couple of days later, fitted up

nspainted-01.jpg

 

The small HVLP touch up guns(which I used on that job) don't need a big compressor: my knackered 30 year old 1.5hp 50l tank job did the whole panel on one fill. I then let it fill up again, painted the wing, filled up and applied the second coat on the quarter.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 03/04/2019 22:54:26

Peter F03/04/2019 23:27:16
98 forum posts
23 photos

Nicholas, HVLP guns can save paint when using say, 40 liters a week, over time you'll notice a saving, spraying a single car wing for example, as a one off, the saving of paint would be negligible,

also, you should never have your vision impaired regardless of what gun you use, I'd guess you have the pressure too high if you experienced this.

HVLP guns were brought in to save paint in body shops that use masses of it, they don't atomise the paint as well though, so a cheap standard gun, will typically give you a better finish than a cheap HVLP gun, they also use less air, for someone who has 5.6cfm compressor as the OP stated, and would probably only use it very occasionally, so paint wastage would not be a consideration as in commercial use, a standard gun would be the better option.

I just noticed you said you used a LVLP gun in your earlier post, but said you used a HVLP gun in your second post?

Edited By Peter F on 03/04/2019 23:29:57

choochoo_baloo03/04/2019 23:38:35
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201 forum posts
39 photos
Posted by Phil Whitley on 03/04/2019 20:14:36:

then wet flat, or dry denib if you cant be bothered, and gloss it!

Please explain what this means - I am very new to this!

choochoo_baloo03/04/2019 23:39:07
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201 forum posts
39 photos
Posted by Peter F on 03/04/2019 20:58:33:

.......

If you want some more advice on which gun to buy, let me know.

Will send a PM Peter.

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 03/04/2019 23:39:22

duncan webster03/04/2019 23:42:35
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2271 forum posts
33 photos

Borrow a copy of this

**LINK**

it tells you all you need to know (and a ot more)

Hopper04/04/2019 03:17:37
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3794 forum posts
79 photos

If you were restoring an E-type Jag or Manx Norton, the advice about two-pack paint, expensive gun and big compressor might be relevant. But for a few panels on a bloody old lathe cabinet or whatever in a home workshop? Nah. Couple rattle cans from the local hardware store will do the job. A good one will mix up whatever colour you need, in a durable and safe machine paint, and load it into a rattle can for a few extra beer tokens.

Edited By Hopper on 04/04/2019 03:19:26

Paul Lousick04/04/2019 09:39:16
1218 forum posts
502 photos

I am at the stage of painting my model traction engine and am using 2-pack paint. No expensive eqipment. I have a respirator as listed above and spray outdoors. If indoors I would need the proper gear..

As I am only painting a model engine, I am using a small touch-up spray gun. The paint tank only holds about a teacup volume of paint and only needs 4-5 cfm of air. (model size spray gun to paint a model engine). This type of gun is all you will need, available at auto parts stores for about $60.

If any of the steel was rusted, I sanded and applied rust converter. Then a coat of primer and a quick sand to smooth. Small holes in casting filled with spot putty.

The 2-pack paint consists of a can of colour and a can of hardener which is mixted together and has a pot life of about 30 minutes. A second coat can be applied in less than 10 minutes and is touch dry in 2 hours.

Clean-up is easy. Emply paint tank and give a quick rinse with thinners. Then add 1/2 tank of clean thinners and give tIhe gun a good shake to rinse any paint at the top of the gun/tank. I then hold a piece of cloth over the gun nozzle which collects all of the spray. Use the wet cloth to clean outside of gun and top ot paint tin before re-sealing. Half fill tank with clean thinners and repeat.

2 pack.jpg

High gloss finish achieved with little effort.

Pin striping applied with a Beugler lining tool using "One Shot", signwriters paint. This paint is very thick and will cover any colour with one application. (My first attempt with using the Beugler). The paint takes 10-12 hours to dry. It is done freehand and requires a steady hand. Mine is a bit wobbly but happy with the result.

Paul

SillyOldDuffer04/04/2019 11:16:49
4868 forum posts
1022 photos
Posted by Hopper on 04/04/2019 03:17:37:

If you were restoring an E-type Jag or Manx Norton, the advice about two-pack paint, expensive gun and big compressor might be relevant. But for a few panels on a bloody old lathe cabinet or whatever in a home workshop? Nah. Couple rattle cans from the local hardware store will do the job. A good one will mix up whatever colour you need, in a durable and safe machine paint, and load it into a rattle can for a few extra beer tokens.

Edited By Hopper on 04/04/2019 03:19:26

That was my feeling too, but I'm an untidy oik. Choochoo left an important detail out of his question, which is his exact Requirement. Given the range between a professional paint job and me splashing old emulsion on with a brush, how far is choochoo prepared to compromise on durability and/or looks? An easy question for me to answer because I care little about the colour of my machines and am an impatient unskilled painter, but many others work at their best in a well-presented workshop, and for some looks are everything. Restoration is a hobby in itself. In pursuit of their agenda, many chaps are expert with paint and have all the gear. I'm not a member of that happy band.

If I wanted a first-class exhibition finish on a machine, or needed it to be corrosion proof, I'd pay someone to do the job. Buying decent spray kit and putting a lot of practice in isn't how I want to spend my time, but perhaps choochoo is up for it. It's a personal choice.

Dave

vernon stuttard04/04/2019 11:26:33
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15 forum posts

Use Acid 8 etch primer; aerosol or spray straight from litre can

Circlip04/04/2019 11:29:24
985 forum posts

If durability is paramount, I would be talking to a powder coater.

Regards Ian.

Andrew Tinsley04/04/2019 11:38:13
930 forum posts

I hate powder coating. As soon as you get a dinge in the surface the steel rusts underneath the coating like wildfire.

I have used the two pack stuff, only using the colour and not the hardener. Takes time to dry but finishes up as hard as applying two pack! Maybe I was just lucky, or could be that the hardener is there to accelerate the drying. I was told to do by an old bodywork man that restores classic and vintage cars.

Andrew.

Mark Rand04/04/2019 16:34:44
802 forum posts

I used 2-pack acrylic to paint the Hardinge HLV after rebuilding it. I used a hooded disposable Tyvec overall, nitrile gloves and a Dräger isocyanate rated mask during mixing and painting. I was religious about this, after not using the mask when mixing the first batch, before spraying. Tight chest and asthma-like symptoms ensued.

It gets quite a lot harder after a couple of weeks, even though it's hard to the touch after half an hour. This it worth remembering if you are in a hurry to get swarf all over the painted parts.

If you are aiming at a 'mirror finish', get a rattle can of matt black paint and just give a spritz of it over the panel before sanding or buffing. This shows you any low spots on the surface as you sand down the high spots. Visible at the far left of the first picture.

You can use the original colours. or not...

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