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Commercial boilers

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Ben Clarke 205/01/2019 10:47:16
7 forum posts

Do commercial boilers supplied new in 2018/19 have to comply with the Boiler test Code 2018

Nick Clarke 305/01/2019 14:35:32
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1291 forum posts
52 photos

What suggests to you that one might not?

Harry Wilkes05/01/2019 15:23:41
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1217 forum posts
64 photos

Miniature boiler were change 1st May 2018 and are still current

H

colin hawes05/01/2019 16:18:40
548 forum posts
18 photos

Commercial miniature boilers have to be CE marked or they can't be tested by clubs. They have to have a test certificate to be used in a public accessible place.

Ben Clarke 205/01/2019 19:30:30
7 forum posts

There is one supplier of loco kits whose boilers do not appear to satisfy the requirements of the Boiler Test Code 2018 regarding test conditions and certificates supplied.

Paul Kemp05/01/2019 20:43:37
696 forum posts
18 photos

Ben,

lt might be more helpful if you asked the specific question rather then generalising. As stated above any pressure vessel / system commercially manufactured in the EU or for importation and use within the EU has to comply with the Pressure Equipment Directive and be CE marked. That is the law. CE marking will be overseen by a notarised body such as a classification society (Lloyds, DNV, BV etc) or an insurance company.

The test code for miniature boilers is exactly what it says, a code of practice not legislation. It is principally designed to bring hobby produced boilers into alignment with the PED and provides assurance to the insurer that the boiler has been constructed and tested to the agreed requirements of the code. It can be used to provide ongoing certification for use of a commercial CE approved boiler. It cannot be used to certify a commercially produced boiler for sale or underpin CE marking.

So what would you reasonably expect when buying a commercially produced boiler? Firstly it must be CE marked, secondly it will have an initial shell test 2xwp pressure certificate issued by an authorised body (could in some circumstances be the manufacturer) and thirdly it should come with a document package detailing materials, construction and maximum working pressure. It won't come with a written scheme of examination, a periodic 1.5wp certificate or steam test certificate.

Not sure if that helps, if you are more specific, more help may be forthcoming.

Paul.

duncan webster05/01/2019 21:40:33
3589 forum posts
66 photos

Paul, are you sure that a notarised body is needed? It is many years since I read the relevant documents, but a quick scan at **LINK**
refers to the manufacturer doing all the certification. No doubt the manufacturer can if he wishes use a notarised body, but do our suppliers? I doubt it

Paul Kemp05/01/2019 22:16:48
696 forum posts
18 photos

Duncan, I believe you are correct that the manufacturer can issue the certification themselves but I understood they have to be accredited and audited or at least be capable of being audited (holding appropriate records / evidence) on a periodic basis. Without any audit process the system is worthless (although in my opinion CE marking is not worth a lot anyway!). Certainly one of the more reputable steel miniature boiler makers uses BES (formally RSA) because that is who issued the shell test certificate for my latest boiler. I am not sure what the smaller / copper boiler makers actually do as I have never bought one. Fizzy could perhaps enlighten us on that. I am aware of one individual who has constructed and CE marked a fairly large miniature steel boiler over the last couple of years and certainly he also used BES to verify the design calculations and issue the certificate of conformity.

The devil is in the detail lol, I am more interested in what the shortfall is to prevent compliance with the test code, anything that is compliant with the PED / CE system ought to be certifiable under the code?

Paul.

Paul Kemp06/01/2019 00:33:35
696 forum posts
18 photos

Duncan,

Just done a little 'light' reading from your link and it states;

CE marking

16.—(1) The CE marking shall be accompanied by the identification number of the notified body involved at the production control phase.

However the 97 document was replaced by (PED) 2014/68/EU, can't stay awake long enough tonight to trawl through that again tonight!

Paul.

JasonB06/01/2019 07:17:13
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Moderator
21632 forum posts
2493 photos
1 articles

My Western Steam cert has the number of the Notified Body

They use a fairly standard form that would seem to be used by all members of the Assoc pf Professional Copper Boiler Makers use so at least several of our suppliers use it.

Edited By JasonB on 06/01/2019 08:00:13

David Jupp06/01/2019 09:15:18
790 forum posts
17 photos

It has come up in a previous thread - caused lots of argument there. Pressure Equipment Directive splits equipment into categories (based on size and pressure), requirements vary depending on category.

For lowest category (SEP - 'sound engineering practice' it is actually illegal to CE mark. Categories I thru IV do require CE marking.

Category I does not require any Notified Body involvement. Higher Categories do require Notified Body Involvement of some sort so Notified body number should appear with the CE mark for those.

Ben Clarke 206/01/2019 10:12:30
7 forum posts

So what does one do when the boiler supplier produces a certificate showing that his boiler has not been tested to 2xWP. I wonder if this might indicate other aspects of non compliance.

fizzy06/01/2019 11:13:55
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1825 forum posts
120 photos

Thank you David, you are toyally correct. Problem is people are mixing one set of regs with another. Southern fed code states 2x wp, PED doesnt. What SF book does state is that you should make your boiler maker aware that the item will be tested in line with sais regs, i.e. tested to 2 x wp. If supplied boiler is commercial and hasnt been tested to 2 x then I would be inclined to ask why?

What size boiler is it?

Nigel

Pendle Stram Boilers

Paul Kemp06/01/2019 12:04:58
696 forum posts
18 photos
Posted by Ben Clarke 2 on 06/01/2019 10:12:30:

So what does one do when the boiler supplier produces a certificate showing that his boiler has not been tested to 2xWP. I wonder if this might indicate other aspects of non compliance.

Ben,

It may not be an insurmountable problem. If the boiler is of an established design and there is evidence of construction then an inspector under the code could examine it and carry out a 2xwp shell test and move forward from there. His other option could be to accept the manufacturer shell test and certificate it for a working pressure of half the value of the manufacturer shell test certificate. Both these would be dependent on the boiler being CE marked, if it's not CE marked the code specifically prohibits him from testing it at all. The construction evidence he would be looking for would be material certificates and evidence of welder competence in the case of a steel or TIG welded copper boiler (welder certificate may not be supplied if the boiler was constructed under the supervision of a notarised body).

Another option is to certificate the boiler under the commercial inspection regime using an independent boiler inspector (I would recommend someone from the Association of Independant Boiler Inspectors). Under this regime the boiler is given a 2wp initial test and then a 1.5wp when assembled with all fittings and a steam test then thorough examination and hydraulic test every 10 years with an annual cold examination and steam test. Likely to cost you £300 - £400 a year. They will still require constructional evidence

If the supplier is unwilling to engage in dialogue with you that suggests a lack of confidence in his product!

Paul.

Ben Clarke 207/01/2019 09:10:44
7 forum posts

Paul

Thank you for these comments.

The problem is that the boiler is not of a standard design. it is a 'one off'' with no details published.

Certificates available are very vague particularly regarding materials used for the various parts of the boiler.

I am not sure of its capacity but it is a steel boiler for a 71/4" gauge Narrow gauge loco.

I am thinking that it would be very risky to purchase this boiler.

Ben

JasonB07/01/2019 09:17:47
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Moderator
21632 forum posts
2493 photos
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If they are a supplier of kits then I would have thought it unlikely to be a "one off" as they would have made one for each kit. Or are they just selling on a boiler that they have?

Perfectly acceptable for them to have designed the boiler and had the design signed off rather than to have used a published design.

Paul Kemp07/01/2019 09:58:52
696 forum posts
18 photos

Ben,

I sent you a PM.

Paul.

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