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Modern efficiency !!!!!!!!!

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martin perman19/12/2018 11:10:17
1614 forum posts
67 photos

Regardless of the cost and the week without it, nearest dealership is 30 miles away, I collected the car from the garage this morning and as soon as I turned the key I found that I had a different engine so the issue had been brewing over time.

Martin P

larry phelan 119/12/2018 11:41:15
458 forum posts
11 photos

There was a time when cars were simple ! Is there anyone out there old enough to remember when that was ?cheeky

Brian Wood19/12/2018 11:50:21
1929 forum posts
37 photos

Oh yes, and the starting handle you had to pull them over with to fire up the engine, remembering to keep your thumb away in case of kick back

Along with dim lights, awful screen wipers, no heating, narrow cross ply tyres, poor brakes, scoop opening doors semaphore direction indicators if you were lucky etc ----who could forget!!!!


Peter G. Shaw19/12/2018 12:01:05
967 forum posts
39 photos

20 years ago I bought my first diesel - Peugeot 405 turbo. 2 years old with 37K on the clock. At some high mileage, the clutch was changed, then at 137K the cylinder head failed - apparently they were known for that. But after that we ran to 165K at which point it was 12 years old. We part exchanged it for a 2 year old Focus 1,8 turbo diesel with 27K on it because we were told that the Peugeot towbar was no longer strong enough to tow our caravan.

That Focus. The worst car I have ever had. Poor tyre life, and not on cheap tyres either, clutch failure at 56K. Engine failure at 59K, various other engine management parts falure. We were glad to get rid at 85K/6 years old.

The replacement is a Toyota Avensis 1.8 petrol. Bought new, 5 & 3/4 years ago. 78k now on the clock. It does everything we want. Other than normal wear and tear, nothing has failed.

Both the Peugeot & the Toyota on Michelin tyres exhibit the same wear characteristicks - about twice the Focus! Which tells me it's not the drivers. In terms of economy, the Peugeot did 42.5mpg, the Focus 45.5 mpg and the Toyota does 38.5mpg. All averages of course which includes local running about and caravan towing.

Both diesels had turbochargers. The Focus also had a DMF. The Toyota does not have a turbo, and as far as I know does not have a DMF, although I understand some petrol cars do indeed have both. The Toyota is also far quieter than the diesels and theoretically more powerful and faster than the diesels.

When we bought th Toyota, we ummed and ahhed over Petrol v .Diesel. Diesel for its slogging power, but the unreliability of DMF's, and the known problems with regeneration in that we are not in a position to regularly do 20 minutes at 60mph in a lower gear meant that we had to go back to petrol. We do about 13-14k per annum which isn't enough for diesels.

I only wish we'd bought the Toyota earlier!


Peter G. Shaw

Neil Wyatt19/12/2018 12:47:35
16248 forum posts
679 photos
74 articles
Posted by Mick Charity on 19/12/2018 08:32:22:

There is a disease spreading all across the world & unless we find the cure then pretty soon the whole of mankind as we know it will be destroyed.

This disease is called GREEN.

There will soon come a day when it will be difficult to purchase petrol or diesel in the quantities needed to fuel a motor vehicle in daily use. The pumps will disappear as rapidly as those EV charging points are appearing.

With the introduction of self driving vehicles, it may actually become impossible to justify self ownership of any form of personal transport, these things will NEVER be able to interact with human drivers on the roads, so it's possible that human drivers may be banned from the highways.

Be afraid, the Brave New World is happening.

Well, I agree with the last sentence of your post...

Roll on affordable EVs I say...


Neil Wyatt19/12/2018 12:52:05
16248 forum posts
679 photos
74 articles
Posted by larry phelan 1 on 19/12/2018 11:41:15:

There was a time when cars were simple ! Is there anyone out there old enough to remember when that was ?cheeky

Yes, but they also seemed to break down a lot more often...

V8Eng19/12/2018 12:56:01
1311 forum posts
27 photos


Posted by larry phelan 1 on 19/12/2018 11:41:15:

There was a time when cars were simple ! Is there anyone out there old enough to remember when that was ?cheeky

Unfortunately I am having started driving in the 60s😢

I also remember shortish mileages between services and some awkward to get at items needing greasing at 3k intervals. Things like contact breaker points failing, spark plugs furring up, carburettor jets blocking.

Serious rusting on relatively young cars, brakes that took a long time to stop you at speed, etc.

Electrics that couldn’t keep up with demand.

I could go on and on but will resist the temptation.

Modern cars are (comparatively) quite brilliant, I look at all the big covers under the bonnet and think yes Better check the oil because I can see everything else through the containers.

Edited By V8Eng on 19/12/2018 12:59:35

Circlip19/12/2018 13:09:45
961 forum posts

Best car I had, Ford Escort 1.6D (CAV engine) 54mpg when I bought it, 70k on clock, 54mpg 7years later with 150k on clock. Only engine fault in that time, new water pump. Body corrosion was problem. Modern motoring later was new Punto, 10k and 2years, new exhaust, dealer said the exhaust didn't have time to heat up to "Dry out" between runs, (Right angled bend at bottom of pipe where it rotted out didn't help either). 25k., dash light with engine picture on it and misfire informed the garage that ONE of the coil packs(?) had gone down, two on it, each serves two cylinders. Went back to garage a few times when light came on despite both coil packs being replaced. Transpires that when the coil goes down, it bu***rs the ECU! NEW one from Germany, more than £500, latest version fitted to Punto before model change. Replaced it at 35k with a Sandero (Renault really) 4 years old with 12k. When "Tested" this year I'm informed that "We tested the water content in the brake fluid and the fluid needs replacing"

First time in 55 years of motoring that I've been hit with that one. It was the main agents testing it, so it MUST be right.

Regards Ian.

Peter G. Shaw19/12/2018 13:41:34
967 forum posts
39 photos

There was a time when cars were simple ! Is there anyone out there old enough to remember when that was ?

Yes. And all the short term servicing that went with them. Along with crossply tyres, rear wheel drive, poor heaters, low power headlights etc.

But, at the same time, less red-tape, fewer restrictions, fewer vehicles on the road, no motorways, death trap 3 lane roads. Motoring then was fun. Mind you we were much younger then as well.

Yes, although home servicing was simple and easy (perhaps as well considering the reliabiity issues), today's cars are much better in all sorts of ways, so being unable to DIY, is a small price to pay.

Peter G. Shaw

Swarf Maker19/12/2018 13:46:27
72 forum posts
4 photos

First time in 55 years of motoring that I've been hit with that one. It was the main agents testing it, so it MUST be right.

Yes, they probably are. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and the water content that it attracts leads to internal corrosion of the hydraulic parts. It's a good and useful test to carry out and should be done fairly regularly. Surprised that you have not come across it before!

not done it yet19/12/2018 13:57:52
3144 forum posts
11 photos

Is that an MoT failure? Is it a main dealer? You only need to search on U-toob to find that a lot of places don't actually do what they charge for. The last time my local repairer bled my brakes, I supplied the brake fluid.

I might just be inclined to nearly empty the fluid reservoir and top up with fresh fluid. If the dealership/repairer actually change it, I would be checking that each bleed screw had been at least bled a bit.

Yes. I would chase most of the fluid back from the calipers, to maximise the fluid changed. This could be done several times a year at far less cost than the dealership 'changing' the fluid just the once! Just mind the paintwork if it has the old type of fluid (almost certainly has, as the silicone based fluids are not hygroscopic). Robbing (pub) landlords, some of them.

Michael Gilligan19/12/2018 14:54:44
13547 forum posts
586 photos
Posted by Circlip on 19/12/2018 13:09:45:

Replaced it at 35k with a Sandero (Renault really) 4 years old with 12k. When "Tested" this year I'm informed that "We tested the water content in the brake fluid and the fluid needs replacing"


It may, or may not, be relevant to your vehicle but the problem is a genuine one.

Water lowers the boiling point of the fluid:



Colin Heseltine19/12/2018 19:34:47
319 forum posts
73 photos

The comments about driving hard to clear blocked filters reminds me of an occurrence a fair few years ago. Mt In-laws had a 2 litre diesel Granada which was blowing lots of black smoke out. They want to know what the issue is. I persuaded them to let me take it for a drive. I bought it back 20 mins or so later having thrashed the b....x of it in second and third gear along the main road near me. No longer any black smoke and its performance (such as it was) was restored. The injectors were blown nice and clean.

I must admit I regularly give my 2 litre Mondeo similar treatment and have done so with the previous few diesels. It regularly gives me 44 to gallon and on longish trip like this morning (130 miles each way) returned 53mpg.

I sometimes long for the old days sorting out carburettors and ignition systems, doing engine rebuilds. I have just put a programmable ECU on my Caterham7 and although I have not done the programming on it ( a much more skilled and knowledgeable person did this bit), it is amazing to plug the laptop in and watch what actually happens ignition and fuelling wise as the engine revs up and slows down again. I was quite entertaining trying to wok out why when I lifted off the throttle the engine would keep a nice steady 2300rpm up. This was a little unnerving on the M6 in heavy evening traffic. I had to do a lot of tests capturing engine data from the ECU to send to the manufacturer or him to suss out the issue.

The brake fluid requiring changing is something that has been around since I started working on cars back in early 1970's. Lots of high speed braking and the fluid can boil. As soon as it boils NO BRAKES.


Alan Waddington 219/12/2018 21:56:12
436 forum posts
86 photos

Haha, all this moaning about new technology, and extolling the virtues of simpler times....yes old stuff is cool, but new stuff is infinitely better.

For example 20 years ago i could service my van on the drive, but it wouldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, was rattly, uncomfortable, had candles for headlights, did 20 to the gallon on a good day and was generally crap.

In comparison the current van has things under the bonnet which i dont even recognise, but has 204bhp, stops on a sixpence, is quiet and comfortable, with headlights that light the future, does 35 to the gallon and is generally fabulous.

Would i swap for the old one.........err let me think about that for a nanosecond thinking

Trevor Crossman 119/12/2018 23:23:54
125 forum posts
15 photos

Modern cars,vans and motorbikes are indeed many ways a fantastic improvement over the leaky,rattly rubbish that I had in my youth, but I'm not sure about the ''greenness'' of modern motors due to parts being shipped to and fro across the globe before final assembly. By co-incidence a Guardian article today shows how a (BMW) Mini crankshaft starts as a casting in France, arrives and is worked on at a plant in England, sent to Germany for fitting into the engine, which is returned to another plant in England to be fitted to the car. The same sort of process must be going on for many other components and for other manufacturers, so how can 'global' manufacturing be better for the environment than 'local', though of course it may well be deemed to be 'more efficient' by the bean counters that control most things these days.


clogs20/12/2018 07:03:27
476 forum posts
12 photos

just to add,

practically all modern vehicles never have major mechanical's the cxap electronics that let the side down.......that's because somehow the know nothing accountants have got control....I'm guessing that most of the electronics is made in a shed somewhere in China....BUT IT'S CHEAP......!!!!!!

long gone of the days when cars were tested for 1/2 million miles before they got into, some hairy moron just outta uni setting up a computor program tell's us it'll work OK......there should be mandatory warranty on all automotive electronic's for 100,000 miles more

mentioning no names, I did prototype work on a high power wind turbines, told management there was a design problem.....was told the computor says it'll be OK....and what the xxxx did I know about anything......3 months down the line a major disaster and a refit to each turbine cost £600,000 each......Managemnet and Accountants....bahhhhhhh....

on Trevor's point, there's a certain ladies knicker manuf that sends the cut material to Turkey for the sowing to be done truck.......!!!!!!!!!..very green and OTT.......

on my old vehicles,

as the Citroen is show and go so it has an alternator.....actually off a Kubota tractor re-machined and fitted inside the old 3 wire dynamo..... so the "anarack's" wont notice......

the distributor was totaly rebuilt but with a 2 wire electronic ign system.....Brakes have modern linnings so they work a little better....just.......hahaha......

as for the greasing I quite enjoy it but I have a commercial grease gun on a hose with a large bucket of grease with the whole thing on casters plus a 2 poster car lift....

nobody mentioned CD players but all mine get a decent radio with some sort of modern connector so I can plug in my I-POD......but thats now old tech........hahaha......

job for next year, client wants a modern 16valve (black) Ford Focus petrol engine in a MKII Escort.......absolutly no ECU....carbs off a Kawasaki, distributor from a MkIII Escort.....there u go.........

All the best of the new and the old....


wishing you all the best for the festivities and a special thanks to the moderatorator's for giving their time......

HAVE A GOOD ONE.........Clogs

Ady120/12/2018 07:59:20
3463 forum posts
513 photos

I know thrashing the backside off an older diesel worked in years gone by but I'd be a bit uneasy about doing it on a modern unit full of bells and whistles

Life was easier when it was only the fuel, the compression and a drainpipe at the back

FMES20/12/2018 09:36:25
595 forum posts
2 photos
Posted by martin perman on 18/12/2018 20:14:52:

Reading the thread about combi boilers makes me think that saving the planet is becoming a bit silly, I dont disagree with the basic premise but its costing us individuals lots of money.

I'm collecting my car from the dealer garage tomorrow where its been for the last week because the Catalytic Converter light came on followed by the management light, the traction control and cruise control also failed all because of the DPF failing and it failed because I who prides himself in acheiving the best MPG, doesnt break speed limits, doesnt thrash his car enough to burn the filter clean, so trying to save fuel and drive carefully is about to cost me £507, basically I give up and whats the point of trying.

Rant over.

Martin P

FWIW, cleaning a DPF both active or passive does not require the breaking of speed limits, more the use of higher revs over a period of time.

Most DPFs dont start to clean until the gas flow through them is high enough, on Peugeot / Citroen for instance its at 2400 Rev/min, which as most would accept would be well in excess of the national limit in top gear.

So don't use top gear - you can bring the revs up in a lower gear ins cruise, it won't harm the engine but even so it can take upwards of 20 minutes at those revs to produce a full clean.

Normally when a DPF blocks you will get plenty of warning before the CAT fails and there are now a number of businesses that will remove the DPF, and pressure clean it to good effect for about £60 (BMW X5) .


Chris Evans 620/12/2018 10:53:53
1442 forum posts

Interesting thread that will run and run.

I am a big diesel fan having run series Land Rovers for 40 years. When I retired 5 years ago I could not afford to keep all the toys and the motorcycles won. Sold the Land Rover and bought a Toyota Rav 4. Without doubt the worst car I have ever had. 2.2 diesel with supposedly 170 Plus horse power. I could never find the horses without being brutal with it. Just about zero low down torque a best of 32 MPG on a gentle run from Midlands to Devon. I hated that car and only kept it 4 months. Replaced with a Mondeo estate 2.0 diesel. reliable and never less than 50 MPG.

Hopper20/12/2018 11:17:56
3651 forum posts
72 photos
... I'm informed that "We tested the water content in the brake fluid and the fluid needs replacing"

First time in 55 years of motoring that I've been hit with that one. It was the main agents testing it, so it MUST be right.

That may be because these days every motor mechanic (sorry, automotive technician) has a brake fluid tester the size of a ballpoint pen in his top pocket. Stick it in the fluid reservoir. press the button and a green/yellow/red LED tells you if the fluid has absorbed excess water, which it almost always has after a couple of years.

If you have ever had to replace wheel cylinders or a master cylinder, it's almost certainly because skunky old brake fluid full of water corroded them, not because of wear. Today's ABS brake systems are even more sensitive to water corrosion and it's not a maintenance item worth skimping on. (For example: If it's a BMW motorcycle: $5,000 ABS module needs to be replaced if it corrodes. No repair possible. Funny that!)

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