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Warco WM250V Rattling Noise

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Ross Lloyd 104/06/2018 22:45:36
121 forum posts
1 photos

Sorry for the large volume of posts on my lathe, I am getting this thing set up and lots of questions are popping up!

The lathe is making some pretty ferocious rattling sounds. I have not yet applied the heavy grease to the gear wheels, I just applied some machine oil until the grease turns up. Could that be the cause of the rattle, or is this normal? It is present at all speeds and worst at high speed. Plenty of oil in the main gearbox. The source seems to be from around the chuck. The headstock cover under the square rubber plate is also quite warm to the touch. WARNING: Loud!

Edited By Ross Lloyd 1 on 04/06/2018 23:03:43

Ed Duffner04/06/2018 23:07:17
694 forum posts
61 photos

Hi Ross,

Sounds like the gear-train is engaged.

If not already done, try undoing the change-gear banjo and re-tightening so the gear train is not engaged, then try again. The gears on my WM180 are quite noisy too when engaged.

Regards,
Ed.

Ross Lloyd 104/06/2018 23:21:19
121 forum posts
1 photos

Hi Ed, thanks for replying.

Apologies for the new guy questions, please bear with me!

If I disengage the gear train does that not mean the power feed / threading functions will not work? They are driven by the gear train. I took this video with the cover off (I know, naughty but its low speed) and I think the noise is coming from the middle change gear as it seems looser. I could not see how to tighten it though.

Do you mean to undo the allen screw on the base of the banjo, move it to the right and kind of leave it flapping in the breeze, or are you just suggesting to tighten the gears and then put them back?

JasonB05/06/2018 07:00:00
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Moderator
13073 forum posts
1188 photos

The suggestion to swing the banjo out the way was to see if that was causing the noise, Just loosen, swing out of mesh and nip the screw back up so it does not flop about. If it is this making the noise then you need to set the backlash of the gear train.

With the banjo swung out of mesh loosen the studs holding the gears and then cut some thin strips of photocopy thickness paper. Run a strip between the two lowest mexhing gears and work them back and forth so the paper is crimped into a zig-zag and then tighten the stud of teh upper gear. Work through each like this and finally do the same with the one that meshes with the spindle gear before tightening the bango. This should give you quite gears like this

If there is any ringing noise after that come back and we can sort out the sideways clearance of the gears. Also hold something in the chuck when testing as at slow speeds you can get noise from the scrww/jaws moving..

 

Edited By JasonB on 05/06/2018 07:16:57

Andrew Johnston05/06/2018 09:04:43
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3969 forum posts
487 photos

Grease is not generally recommended for change wheels; it just attracts grit and dirt. Use a little slightly sticky oil; I use slideway oil.

Andrew

Journeyman05/06/2018 09:24:32
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514 forum posts
71 photos

Setting the gear train to be as quiet as possible is a bit of a black art! I use grease on mine and find it helps a lot. A lot of noise will be generated if the sides of the overlapping gears touch each other this can be minimised by making sure that the correct spacers are on the studs, they are slightly different thicknesses. Well on my WM250 they are, whether by design or not I don't know. It is also possible to slide the banjo laterally on it's collar and this sets the sideways clearance for the leadscrew gear.

paper.jpg

When setting up the gears follow the advice in the manual and use a bit of paper (as per the above) to set the running clearance between the gears. To tighten the loose middle gear you will need to work up from the leadscrew end of the gear train. Swing the banjo out, loosen the square headed studs off and slide them up the banjo and lock in place to hold them out of the way. Then starting with the gear that meshes with the leadscrew use the bit of paper to set the clearance and lock the stud. Move to the next gear up the train and repeat. Finally swing the banjo in and set as in the photo, also adjust the sideways position of the banjo before tightening.

Enjoy the new lathe.

John

Edited By Journeyman on 05/06/2018 09:36:28

mechman4805/06/2018 10:12:30
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2019 forum posts
341 photos

Go to Journeyman's workshop; he has written up a mod that quietens down the rattle, I have made one & it does work nicely, only have the self act engaged when needing to machine lengths of material. I use motor bike chain lube spray on my gears, heavier than oil & lighter than grease. Set your gear backlash as per the above methods.

George.

SillyOldDuffer05/06/2018 12:16:19
3126 forum posts
628 photos
Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 04/06/2018 22:45:36:

...

The lathe is making some pretty ferocious rattling sounds.

Slightly risky judging from a recording but that does sound like normal change-gear racket.

Carefully adjusting the gap between gears with paper as described will minimise noise, but what you're listening to is a train of ordinary metal gears clattering under power out in the open. (The guard isn't soundproof). Part of the problem is teeth stirring the air, which you can't do much about.

A much more expensive lathe might have an encapsulated gearbox and teeth modified to reduce whine as in a car's gearbox. Less noisy but no more efficient or effective when cutting metal.

The main thing I miss about my mini-lathe is quiet turning. My WM280 has two noisy cooling fans, a hefty motor and rattling gears galore. Certainly not neighbour annoying or ear-defender loud, but enough to spoil my workshop radio listening at normal volume.

My milling machine is a lot quieter. No cooling fan, far fewer gears, and they're inside a heavy metal box.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:16:42

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:17:10

John Slaven05/06/2018 13:09:09
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18 forum posts
13 photos

Hi Ross,

My WM250VF was exactly the same until I tried the old paper trick between the teeth. It takes a wee bit of time but well worth the quieter running. The noise from the gears is probably just below the motor fan noise now.

Cheers the noo

John.

Ross Lloyd 105/06/2018 18:56:29
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by mechman48 on 05/06/2018 10:12:30:

Go to Journeyman's workshop; he has written up a mod that quietens down the rattle, I have made one & it does work nicely, only have the self act engaged when needing to machine lengths of material. I use motor bike chain lube spray on my gears, heavier than oil & lighter than grease. Set your gear backlash as per the above methods.

George.

Thanks George, I enjoyed that video the other day, thanks for putting it up!

Ross

Ross Lloyd 105/06/2018 18:57:40
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:16:19:
Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 04/06/2018 22:45:36:

...

The lathe is making some pretty ferocious rattling sounds.

Slightly risky judging from a recording but that does sound like normal change-gear racket.

Carefully adjusting the gap between gears with paper as described will minimise noise, but what you're listening to is a train of ordinary metal gears clattering under power out in the open. (The guard isn't soundproof). Part of the problem is teeth stirring the air, which you can't do much about.

A much more expensive lathe might have an encapsulated gearbox and teeth modified to reduce whine as in a car's gearbox. Less noisy but no more efficient or effective when cutting metal.

The main thing I miss about my mini-lathe is quiet turning. My WM280 has two noisy cooling fans, a hefty motor and rattling gears galore. Certainly not neighbour annoying or ear-defender loud, but enough to spoil my workshop radio listening at normal volume.

My milling machine is a lot quieter. No cooling fan, far fewer gears, and they're inside a heavy metal box.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:16:42

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:17:10

Yeah thats true, its not deafeningly loud. Which mill do you have, out of interest? We just got done getting the WIM18 up on the bench today

Ross

Ross Lloyd 105/06/2018 18:58:17
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by John Slaven on 05/06/2018 13:09:09:

Hi Ross,

My WM250VF was exactly the same until I tried the old paper trick between the teeth. It takes a wee bit of time but well worth the quieter running. The noise from the gears is probably just below the motor fan noise now.

Cheers the noo

John.

Seems to be a common thing with those lathes then. I will definitely try the paper trick.

Ross

Ross Lloyd 105/06/2018 18:59:34
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Journeyman on 05/06/2018 09:24:32:

Setting the gear train .....

..... Enjoy the new lathe.

John

Edited By Journeyman on 05/06/2018 09:36:28

Thank you very much for the comprehensive advice, I am going to give that a shot tonight after tea!

Ross

SillyOldDuffer05/06/2018 20:14:42
3126 forum posts
628 photos
Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 05/06/2018 18:57:40:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 12:16:19:
Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 04/06/2018 22:45:36:

...

The lathe is making some pretty ferocious rattling sounds.

...

Yeah thats true, its not deafeningly loud. Which mill do you have, out of interest? We just got done getting the WIM18 up on the bench today

Ross

It's a WM18, does me proud.

Dave

Mick B105/06/2018 20:49:10
618 forum posts
38 photos
I set mine with paper as above and use the washers supplied on the gear stub shafts to make sure the gear faces don't scuff. I get a little mild whine and chitchat from the gears, but it sounds healthy and benign to me.
Ross Lloyd 106/06/2018 13:30:28
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 20:14:42:

It's a WM18, does me proud.

Dave

It looks like a great mill, looking forward to getting started with it. I don't have the DRO or power feed as I want to learn 'the old way' first (a touch masochistic maybe). Do you have any do's and dont's or pieces of advice you could share on the machine?

Cheers!

Ross

Ross Lloyd 106/06/2018 13:31:46
121 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Mick B1 on 05/06/2018 20:49:10:
I set mine with paper as above and use the washers supplied on the gear stub shafts to make sure the gear faces don't scuff. I get a little mild whine and chitchat from the gears, but it sounds healthy and benign to me.

Do you mean putting the washer on the gear axles, where the lube nipples / horseshoe is?

Cheers

Ross

Journeyman06/06/2018 14:26:40
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514 forum posts
71 photos

Ross, you should have something like:-

stud.jpg

Starting from the right there is a T-nut that slides in the banjo, a washer / spacer (these can be different thicknesses), the collar with key that the change gears fit on. All this is on the square headed stud that screws into the T-nut. The groove at the left hand end of the stud takes the C-clip that holds everyrhing in place. It can also be helpful to put a thin paper or plastic washer between pairs of gears on the same stud to improve lateral spacing (stops the gears rubbing). There are also some spacers for when there is only one gear on a stud (shown H on the screw-cutting chart)

As George kindly suggested a look at my website here is a link to Journeyman's Workshop a blatent plug but you may find something of interest, my lathe is a lot older than yours!

John

Edit: Add link

Edited By Journeyman on 06/06/2018 14:36:50

SillyOldDuffer06/06/2018 17:24:55
3126 forum posts
628 photos
Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 06/06/2018 13:30:28:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/06/2018 20:14:42:
 

It's a WM18, does me proud.

Dave

It looks like a great mill, looking forward to getting started with it. I don't have the DRO or power feed as I want to learn 'the old way' first (a touch masochistic maybe). Do you have any do's and dont's or pieces of advice you could share on the machine?

Cheers!

Ross

Not really - it's pretty straightforward, fairly rigid and the motor has decent poke. It can climb mill but I'd not recommend it. Although the head can tilt, I avoid moving it because putting it back to vertical is fiddly. Always lock the gibs that aren't supposed to move during a cut.

I had one fault from new: the standard fit Z DRO scale occasionally jumped extra digits when racking the spindle up and down. The scale was a tad misaligned due to a bump in the casting and the head was binding. Took a few minutes to remove the bump with a file. Since then no problems. My only criticism of the machine is that the table is slightly soft.

Money permitting I'd buy a DRO immediately because 'the old way' on a mill is just a tedious counting/memory test with harsh punishments for inattention! A DRO minimises the chance of silly mistakes which are much more likely on a mill than a lathe because of the distances involved. It also speeds milling up enormously because you always know where the work and cutter are in 3-dimensions.

Conversely I haven't bothered to put a DRO on my lathe and regularly use that to enjoy traditional dials! Much less likely to make stupid dial mistakes and backlash blunders on a lathe.

Good fun playing with new toys isn't it!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/06/2018 17:26:48

Farmboy06/06/2018 17:36:17
76 forum posts
7 photos

Just a word of caution when setting the backlash on the gears, I found one or two of mine ( on a SIEG C4 ) were not perfectly concentric. Hardly noticeable until you mesh them too close, when they will bind once per revolution. Best to spin each one 360 degrees by hand to make sure, and adjust the setting at the tightest point. When you've done them all once, you'll know if you have any like that. I would hope it's not a common problem!

Mike.

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