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Paint for Colchester Lathe

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Mike Perkins 320/05/2018 15:02:04
3 forum posts

I am dismantling two lathes and hopefully making one good one.

I assume the paint is Dove Grey, its a light grey but not sure if Ash Grey is the norm? They are a single colour.

I can get paint from Paragon Enamel Paints or Craftmaster. Since they cost about the same, can anyone suggest which is best for ease of application and durability etc?

Any pointers would be grateful.

Phil Whitley20/05/2018 18:45:44
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

I have just resprayed my Mk1 student in Paragon Colchester light green, lovely paint, and goes on a treat. If you are spraying, get your thinners from Paragon as well, as it is not white spirit, and a "universal" thinner may not work at all, and ruin the job, For spraying thin 15%, and put on a thin tack coat first, leave it about ten minutes, then spray a further 2 to 3 coats, waiting till the previous coat has tacked off before applying another. Have a clean dry soft paintbrush in your pocket, and if you do get a run, gently brush it out, and the brushmarks will dissapear under the next coat. Good luck with it!

Phil

Phil Whitley20/05/2018 19:18:37
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

Forgot half of what I was going to say! Degreasing is of utmost importance, wash the paintwork down with a universal thinner (well ventilated areas only) and then get some of those little sponges with wet and dry abrasive on them and rub down with hot soapy water. the idea is to get back to the original paint surface. I would not try to remove all the paint, as you will also remove all the casting filler, and you will never get as good a surface as the factory did, unless you are willing to put in hours of painstaking work!! Having said that, the two hand positions (tailstock top and neadstock top) will probably have no paint on them anyway. Clean the holes and chips in the paint back to bare metal, then prime and stopper them with cellulose car stopper (put a teaspoon or so of thinners in the stopper every time you use it, to keep it soft), you will probably need two coats of stopper as the first will sink a bit and then blank out the repairs with primer, flat the whole thing, and top coat it. There is no need to prime everywhere, where you have good solid paint, just flat it and give it another top coat or two. How far do you want to go? originally they used an etch primer on the bare metal, as I did, and then stoppered on top of that, but every coat of stopper needs an overnight dry before you can flat it. You could use body filler, this sets hard quickly, but it is harder to flat too! I sprayed my lathe easily with 1L of paint, and have about 1/3 L of thinned paint left for the small bits like handwheels and thread counter.As you see from the pic, I didnt paint the saddle or apron. If you get a stanley blade, and tap it very carefully under the brass plates adjacent to the drivescrews, followed by a scraper , you will find that with a bit of care you can get the screws out, and the plates off, which save a lot of tricky masking. If you do go for masking, clean the edge of the plate. mask round the edge, then fold the masking onto the plate so that the edge of the plate is masked, BUT if you do this, you must very carefully remove the masking while the paint is still tacky, or you will damage the paint when you demask. I masked the plates on the neadstock, but took the plate off the screw cutting gearbox cover, and TBH, it was so easy to get off, if I did it again, I would take them all off!

Phil

Mike Perkins 320/05/2018 21:03:44
3 forum posts
Posted by Phil Whitley on 20/05/2018 18:45:44:

I have just resprayed my Mk1 student in Paragon Colchester light green

It's very impressive. I'm wondering how far I will go in dismantling as it's the headstock I'm taking apart and moving to a Master. Likely the apron too and the tailstock.

I also need to tidy up the tray as its been abused. This will need welding and dressing.

I have the ability to spray, but it will have to be outside though can bring it back inside after the actual spraying. I had assumed I would be hand painting with a roller and brush for awkward areas.

Mike Perkins 320/05/2018 21:10:55
3 forum posts
Posted by Phil Whitley on 20/05/2018 19:18:37:

Forgot half of what I was going to say! Degreasing is of utmost importance, wash the paintwork down with a universal thinner (well ventilated areas only) and then get some of those little sponges with wet and dry abrasive on them and rub down with hot soapy water. the idea is to get back to the original paint surface. I would not try to remove all the paint, as you will also remove all the casting filler, and you will never get as good a surface as the factory did, unless you are willing to put in hours of painstaking work!! Having said that, the two hand positions (tailstock top and neadstock top) will probably have no paint on them anyway. Clean the holes and chips in the paint back to bare metal, then prime and stopper them with cellulose car stopper (put a teaspoon or so of thinners in the stopper every time you use it, to keep it soft), you will probably need two coats of stopper as the first will sink a bit and then blank out the repairs with primer, flat the whole thing, and top coat it. There is no need to prime everywhere, where you have good solid paint, just flat it and give it another top coat or two. How far do you want to go? originally they used an etch primer on the bare metal, as I did, and then stoppered on top of that, but every coat of stopper needs an overnight dry before you can flat it. You could use body filler, this sets hard quickly, but it is harder to flat too! I sprayed my lathe easily with 1L of paint, and have about 1/3 L of thinned paint left for the small bits like handwheels and thread counter.As you see from the pic, I didnt paint the saddle or apron. If you get a stanley blade, and tap it very carefully under the brass plates adjacent to the drivescrews, followed by a scraper , you will find that with a bit of care you can get the screws out, and the plates off, which save a lot of tricky masking. If you do go for masking, clean the edge of the plate. mask round the edge, then fold the masking onto the plate so that the edge of the plate is masked, BUT if you do this, you must very carefully remove the masking while the paint is still tacky, or you will damage the paint when you demask. I masked the plates on the neadstock, but took the plate off the screw cutting gearbox cover, and TBH, it was so easy to get off, if I did it again, I would take them all off!

Phil

I will re-read this again, thanks for the advice.

I wasn't aware that Colchester would have applied filler to the casting though perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Which paint did you use? I see Paragon suggest not using a primer as they claim their paint will adhere to clean bare ferrous surface.

The lather is dismantled in so far there is still the bedway, tray and cabinet so I can paint items like the apron etc off the lathe.

As I said to the other poster I was considering painting with a roller and brush, and now wondering if I ought to consider spraying.

Many thanks again for your time and assistance.

Pete Rimmer21/05/2018 07:26:40
537 forum posts
24 photos

You can get decent results with roller and brush. It's how this was painted:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1jizgb3szllic6h/bantamafter.JPG?dl=0

 

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 21/05/2018 07:28:25

pa4c pa4c21/05/2018 08:43:11
16 forum posts

These Enamel paints such as the Paragon and Tractol ranges are designed to brush out as the Coach Enamels of old. Spraying gives good results but it is unnecessary, brushing gives depth. The only problem nowadays is finding good brushes at the right price. Surprisingly to me, rollers work well too.

Phil Whitley21/05/2018 19:05:14
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

Agreed! I have used rollers to great effect, and TBH it is difficult to tell a carefully rollered job from a sprayed one. I spray because I have the gear, and have always done it that way! It is also easier to get good cover on odd shapes, but you certainly don't get runs with a roller.

Good luck with it!

Phil Whitley21/05/2018 19:44:14
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

I used paragon, but Tractol is good as well, I have painted my Harrison mill with Tractol John Deere green! I didn't intend to get this carried away with the Colchester, it was supposed to be a quick spruce up, but there was a lot of bare metal on it, and one thing led to another, and before I knew it, it was in pieces! They are not hard to strip or rebuild, this is a "before" pic, with all the bumps and dings, and bare metal on the top of the neadstock and taolstock, I ended up taking the bed off the cabinet..................well it was impossible to spray the bed with the leadscrew and power shaft on, and then I realised that there was a bucket full of chips under the headstock, so it had to come off, and before I knew where I was , it just happened!

Phil Whitley21/05/2018 20:06:11
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

There was a few niggling mechanical problems which I have also sorted, like some monkey of a previous owner had obviously had a run in with the shear pin in the gearbox drive, and had tightened the knurled nut with a pair of stlisons, and it had resisted all my attempts to remove it, that, and a few others are now fixed, there is more to do, but I also have more machines to do which do not require in depth repair like this one. I am going to have to do all the realignment checks when I get it in place, it is actually more or less where it is going now, and when I do, I will also look at the rest of the mechanical work. I have managed to obtain a pair of virtually new headstock taper roller bearings, and a headstock rebuild could be on the cards, it is noisy, but they all are, and not excessivley so, but there is a fair amount of very fine metalflake in the bottom of the gearbox, and I only changed the oil last year.................. Unfortunately the stillson monkey has also "adjusted" the end float on the spindle bearings, and my feelings are that this was done because it had become excessive, which is why I am suspicious about their condition. It is though a good machine with very little bed wear, and a very usefull range of threads, and both leadscrew and halfnut are really good!

Pete Rimmer21/05/2018 20:31:14
537 forum posts
24 photos
Posted by pa4c pa4c on 21/05/2018 08:43:11:

The only problem nowadays is finding good brushes at the right price. Surprisingly to me, rollers work well too.

What constitutes a 'good' brush? I've always run away from any kind of painting job partly because I find it tedious and partly because I always seem to struggle to get any kind of a good result. It could be that I have never tried to paint with a good quality brush.

Martin of Wick28/05/2018 21:38:01
111 forum posts
4 photos

I am in the process of re-spraying with Paragon paints. I was interested to read that Phil thins the paint at only 15%.

When I tried that recommended thinning rate, the paint remains like treacle and will hardly get through the gun (HVLP gun at 3 bar and 6cfm with a 0.8mm nozzle). I am having to thin more like 20 to 25% to get reasonable atomisation, which means the tack time is more like an hour. I am new to spraying, so possibly laying on the coat too heavily (but not seeing any drips). but If I try restrict the paint needle to try to get a thin coat, the gun cant cope.

I was wondering what nozzle size/ thinner ratios others are using for these synthetic enamels and whether there are any special tips for dealing with this thick paint? (other than brushing!)

are there any views on the acceptability of using a colour from a different machinery maker to the one owned?

Mike Poole28/05/2018 23:07:37
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2260 forum posts
52 photos

When I was at school a lad in the sixth was brush painting a Norton petrol tank, the result was superb. I think we underestimate the finish that can be achieved by a properly executed brushed finish, it will beat a spray job hands down.

Mike

Phil Whitley29/05/2018 18:52:52
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1001 forum posts
132 photos

Hi Martin of wick, 15% is paragons recomendation, but it depends a lot on what type of gun you use, I have a cheap (Lidl) HVLP gun, which I use for primer, and finish coats, but for the final coat on the Colchester I used an AID model 2, which is my "best" finishing gun. You are right, it still seems a bit treacley at 15% but it went on well, the normal consistency for spraying cellulose finish would be "creamy milk" consistency, but although I was a bit wary of the heavier nature when only thinned 15%, it covered well, and went on in 2 coats to finish, and excellent gloss finish. The only problem is that the runs do not form immediately if you get too heavy handed, and when you walk away from a perfect finish, and then go back ten minutes later, the runs have already tacked off, and it is too late to brush them out. I was lucky! Nice warm sunny day, and no runs (in any visible places!)

Phil

the artfull-codger29/05/2018 20:43:34
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245 forum posts
Posted by Pete Rimmer on 21/05/2018 20:31:14:
Posted by pa4c pa4c on 21/05/2018 08:43:11:

The only problem nowadays is finding good brushes at the right price. Surprisingly to me, rollers work well too.

What constitutes a 'good' brush? I've always run away from any kind of painting job partly because I find it tedious and partly because I always seem to struggle to get any kind of a good result. It could be that I have never tried to paint with a good quality brush.

I use Hamiltons brushes, 1st class brushes but quite expensive, the only trouble is if you buy a new one they need a good "running in" period to fully paint well, I got some 2nd hand ones recently at an autojumble & a treat to use,for fine work & signs I use A S Handover brushes & american Mack swordliners for lining.

clogs30/05/2018 08:59:54
485 forum posts
12 photos

in the old days a painter friend said his dad wore the brush's in for when the son (my mate) took over the business, ......guess they had copper plate and rivets on the handles..........

I worked for Herts Fire Brigade over 50years ago.......they had a paint booth with all the gear.......the old chap wouldn't use it ---always used a brush, perfect finish......never noticed / remembered what the paint manuf was...prob bought out now and not elf n saftey approved anyway........

I was the first to use the booth and the DeVilbis paint guns......JGA....?????

simple days........

Martin of Wick30/05/2018 10:48:49
111 forum posts
4 photos

Phil,

Thanks for that, I too have the Lidl HVLP gun, so good to know it is OK to use. I was only painting an ML7 and chickened out when I saw the size of the nozzle on the Lidl gun (1.6mm I think). Bought an equally cheap smaller gun. I think that as you come down in nozzle size, you probably have to thin the paint more.

I did try using a less thinned mix as recommended and noticed that an intermittent leak on the air needle was probably the cause of the poor/irregular atomisation (=cheap gun!! so had to re thin the paint in the cup, gasp of horror). I can live with the inconvenience of not being able to get multiple coats on in a single spray session as long as the extra thinner will not affect the long term paint performance (no reason why it should?).

So far the spray results are surprisingly good even with the crappy little gun I am using (for the undercoat stage at least). The spray gun is only being used for the cover castings and awkward countershaft plates.

The smaller parts and bed I did by brush and those have also come up very well, but very, very time consuming and yes, tedious (paint, dry, rubdown, paint, dry rubdown, and so on ad infinitum it seemed). The trick I learned (for this paint at least) is to use a relatively stiff synthetic brush (Harris in this case) and work really fast. I can just about keep up on the smaller parts, but when I tried brushing the covers it was a disaster due to my lack of skill, hence use of spray gun.

I will try to source a better quality small gravity gun for the top coats, but it wont be De Vilbis (unless they sell one for a tenner!).

MW30/05/2018 12:12:05
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2050 forum posts
51 photos

I've seen somebody use a paint called "one shot" sign painters' paint. It was used to paint a small machine vice and it looked like an excellent finish. I'm going to try it myself as I've bought a small tin of black.

As others have said, paragon is also a good go-to brand for quality paint.

Michael W

the artfull-codger30/05/2018 19:03:38
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245 forum posts
Posted by Michael-w on 30/05/2018 12:12:05:

I've seen somebody use a paint called "one shot" sign painters' paint. It was used to paint a small machine vice and it looked like an excellent finish. I'm going to try it myself as I've bought a small tin of black.

As others have said, paragon is also a good go-to brand for quality paint.

Michael W

One shot is a good signwriters enamel with plenty of pigment in it & sticks well even to gloss surfaces as is keeps enamel signwriters paint as well,we used the latter in college.

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