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Warco WM250 Lathe and Warco WM18 Milling machine (Advice please)

Advice on large purchase please

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Samsaranda08/04/2018 19:13:10
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435 forum posts
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ER 25 should be more than adequate, and the collets work out cheaper, I have a Champion 20 mill and a Warco BV20 lathe. For the lathe I have the adaptor for the ER 25 that Warco sold for that lathe size, for the mill I bought the no2 Morse adaptor, quite happy with Er 25 on both, we always desire more and bigger but we have to be mindful of our finances.

Dave W

STK200808/04/2018 19:16:11
116 forum posts
16 photos

Thanks

Yeah I am going to stick to the ER25 for now but thanks to those who suggested the ER32 collets.

I will just have to see how I get on for now as I said £££ LOL.

SillyOldDuffer09/04/2018 14:42:24
2942 forum posts
593 photos

Posted by STK2008 on 08/04/2018 19:16:11:.

...

Yeah I am going to stick to the ER25 for now but thanks to those who suggested the ER32 collets.

...

Really good how this forum keeps me educated! When I bought a mill I got ER32 simply because it covers a wider gripping range:

  • ER32 metric - 3mm to 20mm
  • ER25 metric - 2mm to 16mm

Now I find Warco recommend ER25 - why? Bit of digging reveals that ER25 has mild advantages making it slightly more suitable for beginners and perhaps for general work too.

I was surprised to find in another recent thread that the recommended tightening torque for ER32 is a whopping 135NM, (100ftlb / 14kgm ) That's a good deal more than I apply with a short C-wrench, requiring a good heave on a 450mm/18" torque wrench. ( I admit to being a bit weedy.)

One advantage of ER25 is it requires less tightening force, about 100Nm. I guess I tighten ER25 about the same as I tighten ER32, so ER25 is proportionally less loose in amateur hands if you see what I mean.

Also, as hobbyists, I guess many of us tend towards smaller cutters rather than big ones. A 2mm collet is useful. At the other end of the scale although I use a 20mm HSS cutter on my mill fairly often, my most used size is a 10mm carbide. As ER25 chucks are rather cheaper too, might well have been a better buy when I started. The good news is the pros and cons seem marginal; buying one rather than the other is unlikely to be a disaster. (Unless you really must use 18 or 20mm cutters!) Or have I missed something?

Bit of trivia: in passing I discovered another reason why professional grade collets are so expensive. They're rated for 24000rpm! Which led to a machine specification new to me - it's Balance Grade. Machine tools should be rated at G2.5 (ie a vibration velocity of 2.5mm per second) G2.5 is small, but not good enough for the best machines some of which are rated for G1.0 or even G0.4 I guess balance is far more critical on high-speed CNC machines than it is on my lathe chugging round at about 1200rpm. Does anyone own a machine with a known Balance Grade? if so I guess it's something posh and not hobby kit.

Dave

JasonB09/04/2018 16:46:33
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I was talking with ketan a while back and he mentioned the need for balanced nuts not just collets once you start to get into the very high speeds.

The only thing you missed is that if like Gas Mantle you later decide you want a set of collets and chuck for the lathe it will work out more expensive to buy the set of 25 and then a second set of 32 or 40 collets to get the best workholding capacity.

Gas_mantle.09/04/2018 17:03:54
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322 forum posts
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STK2008, I'd think ahead a bit before you jump into buying an ER25 set for your mill.

The point was making that ER32 may be a better bet seems to have been misunderstood although Jason has now made the same point.

In my case I bought ER25 when I bought my mill as that was the advice given and I (wrongly) assumed that ER32 wouldn't fit. That was fine till we fast forward a year and I now want collets for my lathe but it turns out my lathe is suited to ER32.

It means I will end up having ER25 and ER32 when just ER32 would have done.

Admittedly ER25 may occasionally have advantages over ER32 in my mill but if I was aware at the time I'd have bought ER32 then only bought ER25 if there was a specific need for them.

Have look at what size the lathe will take and it may save in the long run if you buy one set for both machines.

 

Edited By Gas_mantle. on 09/04/2018 17:05:48

David Standing 109/04/2018 17:24:54
1033 forum posts
41 photos

Lets chuck a spanner into the works (metaphorically speaking)........

I have loads of 1"/25 mm shank milling cutters (due to my unfortunate habit of buying too many job lots of assorted milling cutters from eBay), so I am running ER40 collets in my WM18 wink 2

STK200809/04/2018 19:05:53
116 forum posts
16 photos

LOL I thought you lot was meant to help on here and not make my life harder LOL :P.

 

Now I am realy thinking on ringing tomorrow and just getting the ER32 as it does make sense tbh damn you all :P.

David Standing

Shhhhhh dont make it even harder for me :P.

On another note how do you find your WM18? I assume your happy with it?.

What was the accuracy like when you got it eg

Runout

Bed level etc etc etc?.

I dont mind tweaking a little but dont want to get into scraping and all that.

 

Thanks

Edit

So I may get them to change the ER25 to this instead

http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-collet-chucks/303204-er-32-collet-set-r8-taper.html

 

Edited By STK2008 on 09/04/2018 19:14:32

SillyOldDuffer10/04/2018 11:16:24
2942 forum posts
593 photos

Dunno if it's occurred to you or not so I'll mention it.

You've ordered a mill and lathes with stands and various other goodies that will arrive together, hurrah! A man, probably with only a hand pallet mover, will move two large plywood boxes from the lorry on to your drive. Perhaps more than one box on each pallet, all strapped together with steel bands, and shrink-wrapped in plastic. My chap was happy to put them in my garage. Not going to be an issue in your case, but imagine what would happen if your workshop was a shed at the end of a muddy garden accessed via steps up and down from a cellar. A bog-standard delivery man is unlikely to help with that! A few people have reported stuff being delivered by grumpy gits who leave everything dumped on the pavement for you to sort out: not the usual experience thank goodness.

Here's the issue; the boxes alone will pretty much fill the space available in your garage. They're bigger than the lathe, mill and stands unpacked, and the bits take up considerably more floor space than when assembled. You will also have an engine crane to accommodate. Expect to have a temporary space crisis.

Unpacking and assembling will take time, especially if it's your first go and you don't have an assistant. If the stuff arrives late in the day, or you happen to be at work when it comes, you might find yourself pushed for both time and space. I unpacked on my drive, partly sheltered by my up and over garage door, just as well because it rained.

My lathe and mill were bought at different times. Neither was particularly difficult to deal with but I was tired by the time I'd finished each. Having to install two machines would have exhausted me without a break. (I'm an unfit retired office worker on the weedy side. A fit youngster would probably do the same without blinking. On the plus side I don't flap and dither in a crisis, on the downside I was inexperienced. Pays to be realistic about your limitations, if any!)

Anyway, not doom and gloom, but I suggest it's worth planning ahead, preparing and having a quick think about worst-case scenarios, particularly as you're tight for space:

  • Where do you want them to put the boxes and in what order? My mill was straightforward because my garage was half empty and it arrived at 9am in good weather. The lathe arrived late in the afternoon: I had only just enough space to store it boxed in the garage overnight and unpacked it on the drive the following day. The lathe was OK, I got quite wet. If you mill is going to be set up at the rear of your workshop, it's probably best to position the box in front of the lathe.
  • How you will see what you're doing in the event that you have to unpack after dark?
  • What will you if it rains?
  • Is it safe to leave boxes under a plastic sheet overnight on your drive, or will they attract crimbos?
  • Will you have time to do unpack and setup alone if you can't get an assistant?
  • Check you have room for the crane. The problem with mine is the legs splay widely and it won't turn in a tight space. Don't forget you need a lifting strap or strong rope as well.

I hope that doesn't sound too scary. As jobs go it's all perfectly do-able, but lack of space and small things can really slow you down. That can become stressful if you are short of time or gremlins strike. I have no doubt that you'll get it sorted - everyone else has!

Dave

STK200810/04/2018 13:19:21
116 forum posts
16 photos

Hi

Love the name LOL.

Realy good points I understand its going to be tight and a pain to move lucky for me I have booked in a few of my friends and my bro all of them are built pretty hefty LOL unlike me I realy am built like a twig I am 99% bone and about 1% muscle.

I shall be hireing an engine crane and I have ordered a few 1ton straps

x2 1 meter

x2 2 meter and a friend lent me a 3 meter strap so I should be able to do some thing with them .

Also to those saying about ER32 well I rang them this morning and they have now changed the ER25 set to the ER32 set at an extra cost of £35 so not a huge difference tbh with ya and as said get them now instead of later and I can now use them on the lathe when I get an ER backplate for the lathe.

I never harrased them for an update on delivery though I wanted to but I thought lets just leave them to it .

Any way thanks all and I shall keep u all updated

Limpet10/04/2018 17:28:42
76 forum posts

Stk. Just to put your mind at rest I received my WM16b from Warco about a week ago, delivered by a very nice man who put as close to the workshop as he could get with the pallet truck. Although they were still waiting for delivery of some of the items purchased on their open day, (still another two weeks to wait). I had to split the mill in half to manhandle (on my own) into the workshop (too many steps for cranes). Just finished cleaning and reassembling now read to cut metal.

When I bought my Chester DB8 a few years ago it was all they could do to leave it on the pavement.

Keep patient

Lionel

STK200810/04/2018 18:29:13
116 forum posts
16 photos

Thanks for replying

Who do they actually use to deliver there stuff if you dont pay extra for them to do it? though I did think about getting a quote from Warco but I could imagine it would not be cheap tbh.

Thanks

Meunier10/04/2018 20:22:32
125 forum posts

I ordered a WM18 from Warco last year and they used Kuehne & Nagel to deliver (most of the way) then a local delivery firm for the last rural section. They charged what I thought was a reasonable GBP132 to S.W France roughly between Bordeaux and Toulouse. That was for WM18-stand-vice-lube-cutting oil etc.
All arrived in good order. I thought that wasn't too bad when even a small package from Arc costs GBP15.50p and from M-DRO GBP9 via Royal Mail International.
DaveD

STK200810/04/2018 20:30:04
116 forum posts
16 photos

Hi

I live in the UK so luckely I get free delivery on every thing I have just ordered which is a good job as i have ordered a Lathe and stand,Mill and stand plus loads of other bits which I could imagine costing a fair bit in delivery tbh.

Thanks for replying

STK200811/04/2018 16:27:57
116 forum posts
16 photos

Little update

There sending out the Mill,stand and a few other bits this week hopefully.

So should get that next week gives me a chance to set that up and then when they get the stand in for the lathe they shall send that order out.

Kind of works out ok as setting both machines up in one day probably would have been a little to much LOL.

Vic11/04/2018 18:18:26
1634 forum posts
9 photos

Did anyone mention bearing nuts? Much nicer to use, I have them on my lathe and mill.

**LINK**

STK200811/04/2018 18:20:28
116 forum posts
16 photos

Ohh not a bad price to tbh.

Edited By STK2008 on 11/04/2018 18:20:55

STK200816/04/2018 09:51:06
116 forum posts
16 photos

Just another update .

Sent them an email this morning as I am a bit confused tbh

I was told that we was waiting for a stand for the lath but they will send out the milling machine and stand etc.

that was fine with me.

The invoice I got for the milling machine dated 6th showed that and did state we was waiting for a stand for the lathe and few bits of tooling for the lathe etc.

I got another invoice dated 11th as I purchased the ER32 collet set a lady rang to take payment for that I assumed they wanted payment asap for the ER32 collet set as they wanted to ship it with the milling machine etc

BUT

it showed at the bottom we are now waiting for a lathe and a stand plus some tooling?.

Wait when I placed the order it was in stock infact every thing was so I was told but now we are waiting for a lathe as well as the stand?.

I assumed they would have reserved a lathe but seems not.

Got to admit getting a bit worried here spent over 3k.

SillyOldDuffer16/04/2018 12:04:18
2942 forum posts
593 photos
Posted by STK2008 on 16/04/2018 09:51:06:

Just another update .

Sent them an email this morning as I am a bit confused tbh

I was told that we was waiting for a stand for the lath but they will send out the milling machine and stand etc.

that was fine with me.

The invoice I got for the milling machine dated 6th showed that and did state we was waiting for a stand for the lathe and few bits of tooling for the lathe etc.

I got another invoice dated 11th as I purchased the ER32 collet set a lady rang to take payment for that I assumed they wanted payment asap for the ER32 collet set as they wanted to ship it with the milling machine etc

BUT

it showed at the bottom we are now waiting for a lathe and a stand plus some tooling?.

Wait when I placed the order it was in stock infact every thing was so I was told but now we are waiting for a lathe as well as the stand?.

I assumed they would have reserved a lathe but seems not.

Got to admit getting a bit worried here spent over 3k.

Don't panic! Like as not you're comparing apples and oranges. You're focussing on the individual item's delaying the order, I think Warco's Invoices relate to deliveries. They're saying they're going to deliver the stand and lathe together, and they owe you both, not that they've lost your lathe.

Dave

STK200817/04/2018 09:21:18
116 forum posts
16 photos

Hi thanks for replying

TBH I have no idea whats going on.

They have took the money for the milling machine and stand plus tooling so cant be much longer before they send it.

As for the lathe and stand etc no idea how long thats going to take to come back into stock any one got any ideas from past experiances?.

Thanks

David Standing 117/04/2018 09:36:54
1033 forum posts
41 photos
Posted by STK2008 on 17/04/2018 09:21:18:

As for the lathe and stand etc no idea how long thats going to take to come back into stock any one got any ideas from past experiances?.

Thanks

That depends on when the next boat from Taiwan arrives, assuming it is on it wink 2

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