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CE Mark - real and fake

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Andy Carruthers17/01/2018 08:50:43
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279 forum posts
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I saw this recently which made me look at (almost) every piece of equipment I own and check provenance, particularly important for equipment my company installs

Another example of blurred lines

ce mark.jpg

Hopper17/01/2018 08:55:37
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5032 forum posts
111 photos

Gee whiz, you would think the Chinese would have checked to make sure their symbol was not similar to an already existing one before they started stamping it on everything in sight. Did they not realize how confusing this would become for consumers?

Chris Evans 617/01/2018 09:07:36
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1818 forum posts

From what I understand the CE mark is self certified and therefore not really worth much as regards quality. Nice of them to put my initials on things for me though.....

Neil Wyatt17/01/2018 09:36:57
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Self certification, but if you don't do it properly it can lead to a fine or imprisonment so there is an incentive to do it properly:

www.gov.uk/guidance/ce-marking

There's no 'official' Chinese backing for a 'China Export' mark - it's presumably used so that dodgy importers (the exporters are under no obligations) can claim it's not actually a CE mark to try and avoid prosecution for misusing it...

Neil

Andrew Tinsley17/01/2018 09:39:49
1250 forum posts

In a past life, I had to get CE approval for a piece of kit that my company intended to market. One had to use a test house to certify everything before you could market the product in the EU.

One thing that amused me was the mains lead, which was sourced in China. It had no CE mark, I asked the company if they would get the leads and plugs CE certified. No problem they said the next batch will have the CE mark and by the way did I want any other markings on the product?

It turned out that the company would certify their products with the appropriate markings without any testing. SO BEWARE any Chinese sourced products with CE marks, the marks are probably faked!

Andrew.

Russell Eberhardt17/01/2018 09:56:46
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2605 forum posts
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Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 17/01/2018 09:39:49:

In a past life, I had to get CE approval for a piece of kit that my company intended to market. One had to use a test house to certify everything before you could market the product in the EU.

One thing that amused me was the mains lead, which was sourced in China. It had no CE mark, I asked the company if they would get the leads and plugs CE certified. No problem they said the next batch will have the CE mark and by the way did I want any other markings on the product?

It turned out that the company would certify their products with the appropriate markings without any testing. SO BEWARE any Chinese sourced products with CE marks, the marks are probably faked!

Andrew.

Unless things have changed recently it is not necessary to place the CE mark on the product itself or on individual components of a product such as the mains lead. It is sufficient to place the CE mark on the packaging or in the instruction leaflet.

Use of an approved test house is not mandatory in most cases (there are exceptions). You can do the testing yourself and maintain a technical file but if you are personally legally responsible if there are any problems. Making high volume consumer products I always used an outside test house for my protection.

Russell

Muzzer17/01/2018 09:59:14
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Given that most of our electrical and electronic gear is made out there, warning that "marks are probably faked" is neither helpful or likely.

If you want to minimise the risk of dodgy gear, buy it from a reputable Western outfit. As Neil says, a failure to ensure stuff has been tested properly is a serious criminal offence. If you like fakery, want to electrocute yourself or burn down your property, you are free to buy from Aliepxpress, Banggood etc

It used to be a requirement to have equipment tested and certified by authorised 3rd parties (BSI etc) but the relaxation to allow "self certification" came out of Europe. This reduction in "red tape" and over regulation is something that many people are very enthusiastic about.

If you claim to have self certified, you need to be prepared to provide evidence, so you'd be pretty dumb to lie about it, particularly if you live here.

Murray

Ian S C17/01/2018 10:17:35
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7468 forum posts
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And after Brexit, will everything made in UK have to have "Made in England", like back in the good old days.

Ian S C

Muzzer17/01/2018 10:48:20
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And it will still be self-certified. Mind you, there seem to be certain factions that want to do away with anything remotely resembling regulations or standards in a race to the bottom.

Brian G17/01/2018 11:49:02
725 forum posts
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Posted by Ian S C on 17/01/2018 10:17:35:

And after Brexit, will everything made in UK have to have "Made in England", like back in the good old days.

Ian S C

The Scots, Welsh and Irish might complain but M&S seem to agree: "Youv'e had your referendum and you're part of England now" **LINK**

Brian

Robin17/01/2018 11:57:42
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386 forum posts

I thought CE marking electrical goods was to say it didn't interfere with the telly. If you made an electric drill which obviously would interfere the boss had to sign a piece of paper to say it wouldn't.

Then TV's went digital and it all became irrelevant.

I was looking to pay thousands to have a computer card tested. The bod looking to relieve me of the money told me that i had to supply the computer to test it in. I said, "You're testing the computer aren't you". He did not disagree so I labelled the product as only suitable for use in the closed magnetic environment of a computer case, headed it, The Electromagnetic Compatability Regulations 1992 - (S.I. 1992/2372) and my customer became a happy bunny again.

The one I really hate is the RoHS lead free solder nonsense. Trying to solder with practically pure tin is very hit and miss. Nuff said.

Andy Carruthers17/01/2018 14:31:01
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279 forum posts
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Posted by Ian S C on 17/01/2018 10:17:35:

And after Brexit, will everything made in UK have to have "Made in England", like back in the good old days.

Ian S C

Something to be proud of once more

Neil Wyatt17/01/2018 14:36:11
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Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 17/01/2018 09:39:49:

In a past life, I had to get CE approval for a piece of kit that my company intended to market. One had to use a test house to certify everything before you could market the product in the EU.

One thing that amused me was the mains lead, which was sourced in China. It had no CE mark, I asked the company if they would get the leads and plugs CE certified. No problem they said the next batch will have the CE mark and by the way did I want any other markings on the product?

It turned out that the company would certify their products with the appropriate markings without any testing. SO BEWARE any Chinese sourced products with CE marks, the marks are probably faked!

Andrew.

That includes iPhones?

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding the situation.

The manufacturer is simply applying the CE mark your employer requested. It's the importer's duty to to ensure the testing and compliance work is done and the files kept, not the manufacturer's.

It may well be than an importer will rely on paperwork and certification provided by a manufacturer, but it's alos possible to get CE testing done for themselves.

People need to stop blaming Chinese companies and start blaming shoddy importers.

Neil

HOWARDT17/01/2018 14:46:12
652 forum posts
15 photos

If I recall correctly CE mark is for the whole machine not individual components. All you can specify for the components is that they are to the required standard, be that BS, EN or any other. But all that does is give you a piece of paper if you are lucky. Not many industries go to the bother of proving components are correct to required specification.

Neil Wyatt17/01/2018 18:45:05
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Posted by HOWARDT on 17/01/2018 14:46:12:

If I recall correctly CE mark is for the whole machine not individual components. All you can specify for the components is that they are to the required standard, be that BS, EN or any other. But all that does is give you a piece of paper if you are lucky. Not many industries go to the bother of proving components are correct to required specification.

More to the point, if you bring together CE marked components to make a machine, or even an assembly line, you have to CE mark the assembly.

Neil

Phil Whitley17/01/2018 19:12:36
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1291 forum posts
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You will all remember of course that the Italian made tumble dryer, made by Merloni under the Whirlpool group (which it owns) and marketed as Hotpoint/indesit/Creda/Proline tumble dryers was of course fully CE marked by its European manufacturer, and has caused many fires, To quote Which consumer org.

It's known that at least 750 fires have been reported since 2004 that involved affected Creda, Hotpoint, Indesit and Proline dryers.

We note that Governments all over Europe are taking firm action to enforce the obvious poor manufacturing which caused this CE marked product to kill people, oh......oh no, actually they are not.

As i have said many times before on this and other forums CE marking is worthless, and Europe and the UK is flooded with items both imported by import companies and personally on which no one will take responsibility for the CE marking. It is much easier to flip you import company into liquidation and start another one.The BSI kitemark which was attached to appliances used to be based on an actual lab test of that appliance, but all the BSI does today is sell very expensive "standard Specification" Documents. Standards have been allowed to fall dramatically in the pursuit of profit, and as usual it is the public who will suffer.

My Brother Manufactures products which are sold worldwide. Because they are non electrical/mechanical/moving, they do not come under CE regulation. Many of these products are purchased by NATO, and the militaries of various countries. He received an invitation to quote for supply of some military grade equipment with a CE mark. He explained to the people asking for the quote that this type of product could not be CE marked, as it was not covered by CE legislation. Nevertheless, a supplier was found who was willing to stamp CE on the products, and he got the contract. All the equipment supplied failed its initial testing, and it was later found that the European manufacturer flipped the order to China, even though the spec demanded European manufacture,and the whole lot will have to be manufactured again, presumably by another contractor, so it is all going back to the tendering process again, but hey, it's only taxpayers money!

MW17/01/2018 19:55:07
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2051 forum posts
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Posted by Phil Whitley on 17/01/2018 19:12:36:

You will all remember of course that the Italian made tumble dryer, made by Merloni under the Whirlpool group (which it owns) and marketed as Hotpoint/indesit/Creda/Proline tumble dryers was of course fully CE marked by its European manufacturer, and has caused many fires, To quote Which consumer org.

It's known that at least 750 fires have been reported since 2004 that involved affected Creda, Hotpoint, Indesit and Proline dryers.

I know this is only a little bit of what you're talking about but I reckon a lot of these fires can be attributed to a failure to regularly clear the dust filter. As this is basically warming up and the dust providing the heat with some flammable material.

Michael W

Sam Longley 117/01/2018 20:00:48
812 forum posts
28 photos
Posted by Phil Whitley on 17/01/2018 19:12:36:The BSI kitemark which was attached to appliances used to be based on an actual lab test of that appliance, but all the BSI does today is sell very expensive "standard Specification" Documents. Standards have been allowed to fall dramatically in the pursuit of profit, and as usual it is the public who will suffer.

Adjusting a standard is not necessarily a bad thing. it may be due to changing manufacturing techniques or to allow industries to compete in a global market. The end user can always change to a different standard if he wishes. Ie the French Agrement ( Sorry not sure about spelling & how to insert the' over the e)

The market drives cost & it is the market that drives standards down. Not the manufacturer. True the manufacturer may choose a lower standard to compete in a market but he is entitled to make a profit- without that he would not survive.

herbert punter17/01/2018 21:15:32
118 forum posts
2 photos

Posted by Muzzer on 17/01/2018 09:59:14:

Given that most of our electrical and electronic gear is made out there, warning that "marks are probably faked" is neither helpful or likely.

If you want to minimise the risk of dodgy gear, buy it from a reputable Western outfit. As Neil says, a failure to ensure stuff has been tested properly is a serious criminal offence. If you like fakery, want to electrocute yourself or burn down your property, you are free to buy from Aliepxpress, Banggood etc

It used to be a requirement to have equipment tested and certified by authorised 3rd parties (BSI etc) but the relaxation to allow "self certification" came out of Europe. This reduction in "red tape" and over regulation is something that many people are very enthusiastic about.

If you claim to have self certified, you need to be prepared to provide evidence, so you'd be pretty dumb to lie about it, particularly if you live here.

Murray

Before the Low Voltage Directive was enacted (which was EU legislation) there was no requirement to safety test any apparatus for domestic use in the UK.

Bert

Speedy Builder517/01/2018 21:22:00
2182 forum posts
152 photos

With BREXIT, will the UK still use the CE mark or revert back to BS ?
BobH

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