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Ideal amateur lathe spindle nose?

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Niels Abildgaard06/03/2018 11:37:31
228 forum posts
74 photos

Thank You for all comments and advices.

My son wants the lathe for gun and outboard work ,so a bigger spindle is a must.

The most cited argument against screw on noses is chuck runaway.

The inverter VFD can be programed for braking rate being not to harsh and much high speed work will be held in ER50 collets anyway.

Best argument for screwing on is easy and extremely accurate manufacture in lathe itself.

Bearings are two 32910 (72/50/15)mm taper roller bearing that can be had from NTN in spindle quality and China costing 3$.The latter will be used first.

The modification to headstock is a rather uncritical removal of the grease traps as shown on lower part of picture.

If Science Museum wants to rebuild last remaining Boxford in fifty years time it can be easily done with two narrow discs.

https://imgur.com/a/KnVQ6

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/03/2018 11:39:06

Howard Lewis06/03/2018 20:40:18
2158 forum posts
2 photos

Some of the later far eastern lathes have screw on chucks, but with two clamps, held to the back of the chuck with Allen screws, which "hook" behind a flange on the spindle. Consequently, the chuck cannot become loose if the lathe is stopped suddenly, or run in reverse.

If you decided to go down the route of using a flanged spindle, the flange does not have to be integral with the spindle, (thus saving making a LOT of swarf. The flange could be roughed before being welded/ force fitted/ shrunk, or located to the spindle with "dutch keys".

If you are planning to turn your new spindle, you could rough out the new spindle, and flange, weld on the flange and then do all the finish turning for the assembly.

Just a thought!

Howard

Niels Abildgaard16/06/2018 20:35:41
228 forum posts
74 photos

I had an attack of old man feeling fit again and bought a ultra longbed AUD of very late model exported to a Danish school just before Boxford closing time.

Expensive JunkBox

Much to much money and a piece of junk really.

The headstock rocked 0.08 mm from corner to corner and the skilled UK machinist cannot have been unaware as the front headstock clamp had never been tigthened and bed was dry rusted over 50 years.

UK machining

 

 

 

I threw complete lathe out and it was a nice kind of having tried it before.

I have had 5 Allegro station cars, 3 Maxis and a Princess and drove all to the scrapper.

After that I had a Punto and a BMW and had one tenth the trouble and drove two times as long.

I ordered a chineese WM210 and had it delivered in my living room 7 days included:

**LINK**

 

The toolholder/compound slide is an absolute disaster but the accuracy is astonishing.

There is no needle movement on the testbar shown.

Its first job was to reduce the spindle flange thickness.

How do I unfold pictures from my album?

 

 

 

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 16/06/2018 20:45:31

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 16/06/2018 20:47:31

John McNamara18/06/2018 08:08:05
avatar
1300 forum posts
113 photos

Hi Niels

Having used a lathe with a screwed spindle nose for a number of years, I acquired a new for me lathe with a DIN 5507 nose with a bayonet ring at the back. I would never go back to a screwed nose. I think the bayonet fitting is a better mount than a Camlock nose, Camlock's sometimes work loose.
The bayonet type is rock solid firmly bolting the chuck back face to the nose face.

Both Camlock and DIN 5507 use the same short taper. The only difference is nutted studs versus camlock pins.

Making up a new back plate is not that hard.
If you can find a name brand chuck already machined for the din taper it would give you a template to work from.

Link to types and sizes.
**LINK**

Regards
John

Mike E.18/06/2018 10:10:38
191 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 06/03/2018 11:37:31:

Thank You for all comments and advices.

My son wants the lathe for gun and outboard work ,so a bigger spindle is a must.

………………………….

For barrel precision barrel fitting and chamber work, its ideal to have a suitable outboard 4-jaw chuck on the tail end of the headstock, along with a rigid attachment point for an indicator so that you can index the bore with a pin gage. Indexing both headstock and steady ends within .0003 before chambering should give you sub minute of angle capability.

Niels Abildgaard18/06/2018 14:37:22
228 forum posts
74 photos

Hello John

Thank You for advice.

After having made the standard chineese cylinder register flange a little narrower in the combat area

wp_20180616_002[1].jpg

fiting and unfitting has become much easier and fast.The  register need not being tapered for me.

I always remove chucks etc end of each sesion.No growing together.

I will make a test rig with the bayonet ring and se if it feels easier.

Am still tempted to make an ER40 nose on spindle.Everything 27mm and less in ER 40 collets and screw chucks,faceplate etc on the locking nut thread (M50*1.5mm) for bigger subjects at lower speeds.

What is Your main dislike with screw on fittings?

Kind regards

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:39:29

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:40:10

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 15:00:59

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 15:11:27

Niels Abildgaard18/06/2018 14:43:28
228 forum posts
74 photos

Hello Mike

Thank You for idea of fore and aft chuck spindle.

What minimum spindle hole diameter for hand and hunting weapon work?

Kind regards

Niels

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:44:18

Mike E.18/06/2018 21:30:24
191 forum posts
1 photos

Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:43:28:

Hello Mike

Thank You for idea of fore and aft chuck spindle.

What minimum spindle hole diameter for hand and hunting weapon work?

Kind regards

Niels

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:44:18

It depends on what diameter of barrel blanks are available from suppliers. I would say a minimum 1 5/16" spindle hole, which should handle most smallbore target weight and also centerfire calibers you are likely to encounter. If possible, purchase pretapered barrels, as tapering takes hours of time and introduces unwanted stress points along the tube.

When chambering, it is very important to ream slowly, and then STOP when within several thousandths of finish depth, shut the machine off, and let things cool down for a couple of hours before taking the final cut; this will help immensely with getting the chamber depth and headspace correct the first time.

I was into the Benchrest dicipline back in the 1990s, but have been out of the shooting sports game for some time now. I'll post one of my old credentials here for awhile, for consideration of the the merit of my opinions.

.

pict0001(medium).jpg

Niels Abildgaard19/06/2018 17:14:30
228 forum posts
74 photos

Hello Mike

Lathe spindles seem to follows MorseTaper sizes.

Boxford and my new WM210 has MT3 and 20.4 mm bore

JasonB has a WM280 I think that has MT4 and 26 mm bore

Some newer amateur lathes less than 200 kg mass has MT5 and38mm bore.

38 mm is what a gunsmith needs then and how long between centres if we make this double chuck spindle You mentioned?

My WM210 can be upped to 26-27mm bore but not 38.

Kind regards

Niels

Mike E.20/06/2018 10:42:59
191 forum posts
1 photos

Hi Niels,

An MT5 taper should be 37.465mm at the small end, so there should be adequate clearance for sporter and most target barrels.

Average rifle barrel lengths go up to 24", and target barrels as long as 26". Headstocks vary in size, so If you are going to set up an outboard chuck, then figure your measurement from the outside end of the jaws on the chuck, through the headstock, and to a point where your steady rest will support the longest barrel you think you might work on, and then add enough bed length for the tailstock to remain in place.

A 26-27mm headstock bore should be ok for most tapered sporter barrels.

Hope this helps.

Best regards, Mike

Niels Abildgaard21/06/2018 20:14:38
228 forum posts
74 photos
Posted by Mike E. on 20/06/2018 10:42:59:

A 26-27mm headstock bore should be ok for most tapered sporter barrels.

 

Best regards, Mike

 

 

Thank You Mike.

My planned WM210 uptodating can have a 27 mm bore spindle with taper for ER40 collets and screw on thread using the ER40 locking ring .

The collection of kit parts is almost complete:

MyBoFoBane

 

 

KitBack

This produce  surplus:

Surplus

 

The parts have only done the flange slimming .

Are there enough spares around , can they be used or are they scrap food?

Coming from and going back to China.

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 21/06/2018 20:39:43

Mike E.22/06/2018 09:59:58
191 forum posts
1 photos

Not sure about the spare parts, but my school of thought is that if you have the room, box them up and store them away for awhile until you are sure that they won't be needed. When reselling any machine in the future, usually potential buyers will want all the original parts; I know I would.

Niels Abildgaard23/06/2018 16:04:04
228 forum posts
74 photos
Posted by Mike E. on 22/06/2018 09:59:58:

Not sure about the spare parts, but my school of thought is that if you have the room, box them up and store them away for awhile until you are sure that they won't be needed. When reselling any machine in the future, usually potential buyers will want all the original parts; I know I would.

Hello Mike

My lathe creations will not be easy to sell and I do not have a lot of room..

The Younger people do not know how to use them and chinese lathes are cheap and plenty .

My next canvas will be the smaller version

Lathe basics

**LINK**

 

It has been very easy to dismantle headstock and it will be easy as wel to put in a much more rigid spindle.

 

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 23/06/2018 16:05:29

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 23/06/2018 16:13:03

Niels Abildgaard25/08/2018 19:39:29
228 forum posts
74 photos

I have made a new design for WM180 and 210 lathes:

Upper is standard MT3 and lower is for new ER40 collets.

The front bearing goes from type 30206 (30*62*17.25) to 32908 (40*62*15mm).

Beaty is that no housing modification is needed

newold.jpg

Niels Abildgaard27/08/2018 17:59:36
228 forum posts
74 photos

My toolmaker friend has fallen in love with my former WM210 lathe and is blueprinting it.

I have bought a WM180 and will get it on friday.

He thinks he can rebore the front bearing hole in headstocks from present 62 mm to 72 mm diameter.

In that case a 50*72*15 mm tapered bearing will enable an ER50 spindle.

I want to keep the rear inner diameter of 20.5 mm to avoid the temptation to do water pipe threading and worse.

Lathes are only 60 kg.

Picture shows present ,ER40 and ER50 versions

mt3 er40 er50 wm180 lathe.jpg

Waste of money maybe but more fun than TV.

SteveI28/08/2018 12:00:01
245 forum posts
17 photos

Niels,

Thanks for keeping this thread alive. I have a feedback for you. The torque required to tighten ER50 collet's is considerable. Especially squeezing them down to the lower end of their 2mm closing range. This is based on my own experiments with some second hand regofix ER50 28mm, 30mm, and 32mm collets and a regofix ER50 ball bearing nut. you will need a very secure spindle lock on your design. Oversize collets are available for ER40 utpo 30mm. Something to think about.

I have recently come in to ownership of a small hardinge UM mill from the 1940's. Saved from the scrap man. Unfortunately this "lucky" find comes with a 5C (!!!!) horizontal mill spindle and no tooling. I am looking to design and make a new 30 taper spindle for it. So please keep posting your thoughts!

Steve

Niels Abildgaard28/08/2018 15:51:22
228 forum posts
74 photos

Hello Steve

Thank You for a very good advice:

Old men do not have the power for ER50.

My experience is ER25 and pleasant, but ER50 is four to eigth times more demanding.

Had not thougth of that.Will try ER40 then

The eigth radial holes on thickest part of my phantasy spindles are for locking during chuck and collet nut handling.

The Hardinge UM looks very nice.Do You have a parts list picture?

Niels Abildgaard31/08/2018 18:31:59
228 forum posts
74 photos

A WM180 travelled all the way to Poland and then to 50 meter from my door.

The danish/arian looking driver dropped it by accident and left very fast.

wp_20180830_005[1].jpg

I have to wait with an absolutely scrap lathe in my small appartment to sometime next week .

wp_20180831_003[1].jpg

Time for reflection evidently.

The bigger inside,same outside diameter frontbearing make a more usefull spindle possible.

All the mini lathes has the same 62 mm bearing hole as far as I can deduct.It can also benefit 918,RedBull ,Siegs etc and the manufacture of new style spindle is not more costly than the present versions.It can still fix the standard3 and 4 jaws plus faceplates and I like the flange mounting after widening the gap 5 mm.

Please look at it and tell me if there is something wrong or impossible.

assem1.jpg

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 31/08/2018 18:35:41

Andy Pugh11/09/2018 11:02:44
47 forum posts

FWIW I recently made a camlock nose for the 4th axis of my milling machine, to match the one on my lathe.

http://bodgesoc.blogspot.com/2017/05/harmonic.html

I think that boring the holes in the right places would be something of a challenge in most home workshops. In fact I think that I would have struggled to make a complete spindle with integral nose. Boring the axial holes with the full length of the spindle behind the face would exceed the capacity of my mill in vertical mode. I might have been able to do it in horizontal mode.

Some significant trouble can be saved by buying the actual cams rather than making them.

These are quite inexpensive:

http://www.gatemachinery.com/product/cam-d1-4

 

Edited By Andy Pugh on 11/09/2018 11:03:38

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