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Ideal amateur lathe spindle nose?

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SteveI06/09/2017 08:03:29
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Posted by Thor on 06/09/2017 06:18:34:

Hi Niels,

Unfortunately I don't have a Hardinge lathe, but here is a photo of the pindle nose. Better photos here.

Thor

Edited By Thor on 06/09/2017 06:25:33

Those are photos of the No.5 4° taper nose, not the No. 5 threaded nose. They have over the years offered both types. I would not recommend to Niels to use that taper nose type at all.

I only suggested the No.5 threaded nose because it and chuck backplates are easy enough to make at home and it is very common on indexers, both old and cutting edge new. As I said a little bit like the original Boxford nose but approximately the right size for Niels planned spindle.

Steve

JasonB06/09/2017 08:17:29
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Steve, any reason why not to use the taper nose, the couple of Hardinge owners that I know both rate the taper over the threaded version. They have made their own backplates without a problem.

Thor06/09/2017 09:16:33
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Sorry Steve, I missed the threaded part in your post, guess my old brain was having a senior moment.

Thor

SteveI06/09/2017 10:20:38
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Jason,

I was thinking about the "amateurs" workshop comments and putting this into context in that Niels is taking on a job at home whereas others may have used their wallet to solve the problem. So with that in mind he needs an affordable solution. I.e. able to use the same spindle tooling in the home workshop on the mill. Second hand the threaded nose indexers and dividing heads are cheaper than the taper, as are the step chuck closers and faceplates. The are also easier to make. New, cheap Asian origin indexers are only available in the threaded nose type. Also if he has deeper pockets the servo/stepper motor indexers are also all threaded nose.

Steve

Neil Wyatt06/09/2017 12:32:52
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Posted by SteveI on 05/09/2017 23:23:01:

Neil, are these flange designs not short taper and face like the camlock?

No, it's a short parallel register that's ideally a close push fit.

As for accuracy the limiting factor is the chuck, not the flange.

Neil

JasonB06/09/2017 13:02:51
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Neil, you can get both, Emco use a short (5mm or so long) 7degree taper which is better in some respects than the straight spigot as the chucks release easily with a thump from the heel of your hand. There is a DIN spec that covers these short tapers.

J

SteveI06/09/2017 16:25:23
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Neil/Jason, thanks for clearing that up I'd like to read up on that short parallel spigot design. Do you have any reference?

Thanks,

Steve

JasonB06/09/2017 16:34:43
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Have a google for DIN 55021

Niels Abildgaard06/09/2017 17:20:37
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Thank You for comments

My first try will be made from a piece of 80mm 16mncr5 steel not casehardened and look like picture with a ER50 collet.

I have turned the stuff and found it nice.

>**LINK**

The real crazy one piece twostroke outboard crankshafts are made from something like this material and this is casehardened and ground somewhere.It must be somehow stressfree.

http://outboardprice.com/image/cache/catalog/parts-accesories/boat-systems/marine-engine-parts/powerhead-and-components/evinrude-3-3l-v6-185-300-hp-outboard-motor-crankshaft-600x600.jpg

I am not sure the 76.18mm grease trap will be reasonably leakfree .

The screw on system may be old but if Schaublin,Boxford and Hardinge (and Myford) has used it so can I and it is easy to make

 

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:21:34

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:22:25

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:25:12

Niels Abildgaard06/09/2017 17:30:10
260 forum posts
89 photos
Posted by SteveI on 06/09/2017 08:03:29:
Posted by Thor on 06/09/2017 06:18:34:

Hi Niels,

Unfortunately I don't have a Hardinge lathe, but here is a photo of the pindle nose. Better photos here.

Thor

Edited By Thor on 06/09/2017 06:25:33

Those are photos of the No.5 4° taper nose, not the No. 5 threaded nose. They have over the years offered both types. I would not recommend to Niels to use that taper nose type at all.

I only suggested the No.5 threaded nose because it and chuck backplates are easy enough to make at home and it is very common on indexers, both old and cutting edge new. As I said a little bit like the original Boxford nose but approximately the right size for Niels planned spindle.

Steve

I have tried to understand this Hardinge taper function on Thors second link ,but I cannot.

Can some explain?

Michael Gilligan06/09/2017 17:54:41
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Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:30:10:

I have tried to understand this Hardinge taper function on Thors second link ,but I cannot.

Can some explain?

.

Thor's first link does a pretty good job of explaining ... but perhaps the drawing on this page will help.

**LINK**

http://www.lathes.co.uk/cataract/

MichaelG.

Thor06/09/2017 17:59:04
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Thanks Michael,

Niels, this description is from lathes.co.uk (I hope Tony doesn't mind, he explains much better than I can):

"Although the early UK-made version of the lathe had an ordinary threaded nose, that from the USA had one with a 4° taper - with types both properly hardened and ground. While the taper type allows the rapid mounting and dismounting of spindle tooling, care must be taken to use it correctly: a fine line engraved on the vertical surface of the spindle nose indicates the location of a T-shaped shallow keyway that must register correctly with the chuck or backplate being fitted; original spindle fitments are marked with a line, circle or dimple to assist in this task. The item is then pushed on to the nose and twisted either left or right to lock it. An ordinary pin type spanner can be used to make the final tightening -"

I hope this helps.

Thor

SteveI06/09/2017 18:33:50
246 forum posts
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Thor,

It is not easy to explain. It is very very simple. The external taper is a 4° degree taper. (Actually it is 3° 59' 30'' which is locking.

There is a locking pin in the chuck/faceplate/collet closer. As you mate the tapers on the e.g. chuck to the spindle nose you rotate the chuck and the pin traverse up a cut out until at the end it stops further rotation. The chuck has to then get pushed more on to the taper (which it can't) for it to be able to work its way out again. I.e. the pin locks the chuck to the spindle nose. All drive is via the friction between the chuck and the spindle nose. The locking pin needs to not fail other wise disaster. To be honest it makes me a bit nervous with a 6" chuck mounted so I always tighten up the pin before turning on and check the pins are in excellent condition. However it has worked for more than 100 years.

To run in reverse the chuck would have to be rotated relative to the spindle nose so that it locks in the other direction. So you can't just change spindle rotation direction on the fly, and you can't stop a chuck instantly in case its momentum causes it to come free. I've been told this is why the "chuckers" which were more production orientated came standard with threaded nose and not taper nose.

One reason it is obsolete is that theoretically you can have a bit to much force which may cause movement once the cut goes on to deform/tighten the pin in as far as it will go. For an indexer in the mill this movement could ruin your part. This is why all the modern indexers use the threaded nose. Once that registers and is tightened it wont move more.

The internal taper of the spindle is for a 5C collet which is retained via a collet draw tube.

I am told in later years Hardinge offered a D1-3 spindle for the HLV-H. So that tells you something, but what is right for the amateur on a budget is not always what is right for industry.

Thanks,

Steve

Thor06/09/2017 18:39:51
1158 forum posts
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Thanks for the explanation Steve, would have taken me a long time to write that in correct English.

Thor

Niels Abildgaard06/09/2017 19:09:42
260 forum posts
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Thank You for links to Hardinge.

I have been lifted from not understanding to not believing.

How could it have passed the safety commisairs?

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 19:10:07

Neil Wyatt06/09/2017 20:26:14
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Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2017 16:34:43:

Have a google for DIN 55021

I think the typical hobby/light lathe flange is less formal than that arrangement and doesn't have the taper.. Arc's website has some numbers and a key drawing you can download.

Neil

MW06/09/2017 20:55:16
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I still believe using a flanged register and 3 locking bolts is actually the "ideal", when we talk specifically about amateur practice, simply because most of the chucks you're going to be looking at are going to use this, some of them 4 bolts but mostly 3.

Then you can choose which register you're going to make, use one of the popular sizes, largely depending on how big you want your chuck to be.

Michael W

JasonB06/09/2017 21:14:01
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/09/2017 20:26:14:
Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2017 16:34:43:

Have a google for DIN 55021

I think the typical hobby/light lathe flange is less formal than that arrangement and doesn't have the taper.. Arc's website has some numbers and a key drawing you can download.

Neil

I would have included Emco Compact 8 and Prazimat lathes as hobby lathes, both have the Din type nose. the typical far eastern hobby lathe has the straight spigot.

Ian P06/09/2017 22:33:30
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In my opinion for the size and purpose of lathe this thread is discussing the D1-3 has a lot going for it. The only downsides are really that it can be more expensive, and also transferring chucks to rotary tables or just to a milling machine table uses up a lot of daylight.

The critical surfaces on the spindle is straightforward and can be redone, (unlike a large thread and register spigot) without significantly shortening the spindle. Although drilling the intersecting cam and key holes requires a reasonably substantial drilling setup and you only get one go at those! The cams and pins can be purchased as standard items

Ian P

Michael Gilligan06/09/2017 23:16:44
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Posted by Thor on 06/09/2017 18:39:51:

Thanks for the explanation Steve ...

.

+1

A very clear descripton, Steve ... Thank You.

Hardly necessary after that, but; for completeness ... the Patent is available here: **LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=894634A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19080728&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Fig.5 being the nose fitting.

MichaelG.

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