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LBSC's Designs

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Dean da Silva06/09/2017 03:49:48
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221 forum posts
Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 05/09/2017 16:21:27:

If we can have a society named Deans L&BSCR with a anual fee of say 25£ I will join imidiately.

If it comes to voting I want metric and Fusion 360 or Onshape as CAD system.

Sir, I've seen your work before with your Myford lathe. You are an artist!
I'll make you a trade: free life time membership to said "organisation" (more like disorganisation) and the chance to personally place my Imperial minded self in a burlap sack and flog me senseless for the price of one homely but sound ML7 lathe. laugh

Niels Abildgaard06/09/2017 06:06:06
260 forum posts
89 photos

Hi Dean and thank You for membership.

It is a Boxford I modify by the way.

If I inherited a Myford I would cash it imidiately and buy two Boxfords.

Starting again I would buy this:

**LINK**

Dean da Silva06/09/2017 08:06:59
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221 forum posts

Neils,

In the near future I am getting my hands on a nice sound Southbend.
But the Myford is THE model engineers lathe.

It's like the spindle rotates with magical blessings of Kozo and LBSC while it whirls about spreading chips everywhere.

David Reeves 115/02/2020 19:18:13
17 forum posts

Hello Dean
I inherited a part-finished Juliet from my late father and set out to complete it. (It is still not finished but I have made some progress.)

Although I had the six drawing sheets, I needed LBSC's 'words' to go with the 'music'. I thought I had struck gold when I found scanned copies of ME on Jon Tomlinson's website but there were problems - see my post on the "Juliet" thread. LINK
Consequently I have now compiled a Word document which contains the complete words (no drawings) for Juliet 1 and 2 and relevant extracts from Hielan Lassie to which LBSC cross refers. To this I have added a corrections, clarifications and appendices. It runs to about 80 pages of A4 and has taken a lot of my time to compile from old MEs purchased on eBay.

The question is what can I do with my Magnum Opus to make it avalable for future generations? I don't wish to publish it myself and the problem of copyright is an unanswered question. I would be happy to provide copies on request to interested people for just the cost of printing and postage. I sent a copy to Neil Wyatt who passed it on to the ME publishers but this has come to nothing. I can e-mail you a copy if you wish.

You have ambitions to collate all of LBSC's work: here is one contribution.
Regards
Dave Reeves

Lainchy20/02/2020 10:51:17
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218 forum posts
71 photos

Hi David,

I would be very interested in your compilation, if it's made available, as I'm just looking at plans for Juliet II (Baker valve gear). I too have downloaded Jon Tom's document, and I've spent the last couple of weeks looking at the plans, and the words, although they are of course for Juliet 1.

Regards

Ian

Howard Lewis20/02/2020 14:35:08
2927 forum posts
2 photos

Putting aside the matters of copyright and iintellectual property rights, before too long we shall have to face the fact that Imperial fasteners will become extinct. Ther have been increasing in cost for a long time. Some twenty years or more ago I wanted some 1/4 BSF capscrews. The local hardware stockist had none. The only Imperial that he had was the last box of 200 1/4 BSF hexagon head setscrews. I was on the point of offering to take it off his hands when I was told that they were 75p each. I decided not to spend £150, and bought just three!

So, the decisions will have to be made. As Rod jenkins said, these decisions will interact with mating components. Should 1/4 BSF be replaced by M6? If 3/16 holes are opened up to 5 mm will there be enough meat around the new hole to be safe and strong enough? Should 1/8 be breplaced by 3 mm or would 3.5 mm be better?

How many of us already do these sorts of things? Probably when we make a model, or a tool, dimensions are slightly changed to suit the material that is available. My Bending Rolls are mounted on 100 x 12 mm steel, because 4" x 1/2" was not available

If the drawings are completely remade using metric dimensions, they may retain the spirit of the original design, but the detail will will be different, as will the end result. The original 6 " dimension will have become 150 mm.

So are the new drawing a breach of the original copyright, since nothing on them corresponds / duplicates the original, possibly fractional, ones? Presumably the copyright of the metric dimension drawing now lies with the CAD operator rather than the man who first put pencil to paper with Imperial, probably, fractional sizes..

The only alternative will be to make Imperial fasteners, and work to partial Metric dimensions, trying to drill holes that are 6.354 mm in diameter by 12.7 mm deep, and milling 0.0752 mm off pieces of 8 mm key steel,

But how long will Imperial drills, taps, dies and cutters remain available? So full scale Metrication may well be forced upon us,

Howard

David Reeves 126/02/2020 12:40:51
17 forum posts

Ian (Lainchy): you have a private message. DR

HOWARDT26/02/2020 16:08:28
510 forum posts
15 photos

I am in the process of building a 3 1/2 inch Evening Star, all fasteners, threads and holes are metric. All parts are made to fit each other so who knows looking at a model wether it is metric or imperial. Alright the hexagons are a little bigger but I am building for my satisfaction not an exhibition piece or for club critique.

Redsetter26/02/2020 18:54:27
108 forum posts

Copyright issues apart, Mr De Silva would be well advised to build one of LBSC's locomotives himself before he starts trying to redesign them. It is not as easy as he seems to think.

Bill Chugg26/02/2020 19:44:58
1299 forum posts
8 photos
Posted by Redsetter on 26/02/2020 18:54:27:

Copyright issues apart, Mr De Silva would be well advised to build one of LBSC's locomotives himself before he starts trying to redesign them. It is not as easy as he seems to think.

I am wondering if he would find time to do both ? It sounds like a massive undertaking - almost a lifetimes work in itself ?

Whatever he decided, I wish him success.

Bill

 

Edited By Bill Chugg on 26/02/2020 20:09:31

SillyOldDuffer26/02/2020 22:30:46
5369 forum posts
1090 photos
Posted by Redsetter on 26/02/2020 18:54:27:

Copyright issues apart, Mr De Silva would be well advised to build one of LBSC's locomotives himself before he starts trying to redesign them. It is not as easy as he seems to think.

Not sure why?

Until having to work for a living sidetracked him Dean was translating 2D plans into 3D model form. It's a good way of finding faults in original plans because 3D components are dimensionally accurate making it possible to detect misfits when parts are assembled in cyber-space.

Also possible to detect the same errors by making real parts out of metal, but that's expensive and liable to lead to bodges, because the builder is likely to 'fit' rather than correct the plan and remake an expensive part when the build can be massaged to accommodate it.

Better I feel to correct those errors in a 3D model, before starting work in the real world.

Of course modelling a machine in 3D doesn't guarantee all be well by a long shot, but it's a much better start than assuming the 2D plan is trustworthy - many of them aren't quite right.

LBSC claimed to provide all the 'Words and Music' needed to build his engines, and much of his early work does come up to scratch. Not all of it though; LBSC made mistakes and left important details out. I find his later work less complete, possibly because he was only exploring ideas rather than designing fully debugged engines to be built by beginners. Lots of smoke around the subject because at the end of his career LBSC became intolerant of criticism and never answered questions, preferring instead to assert he was always right. Even when he was obviously wrong.

I don't think it necessary for Dean to build an actual LBSC engine first. I agree it would be wise for an experienced builder to build one of Dean's interpretations before unleashing it on an unsuspecting public because making things often reveals practical problems and improvements. It's easy to design 3D models that are all but impossible to make in the real world and are therefore useless. Nonetheless, modern professional design always starts in CAD : no-one designs a new car engine in 2D and makes a prototype before daring to go 3D. Doing so costs a fortune.

Good for Dean, I hope his career allows him to resume his CAD adventure.

Dave

Edit:Typos due to cat employing 'pester power'.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 26/02/2020 22:34:30

Hopper27/02/2020 00:06:45
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4165 forum posts
89 photos
Posted by Howard Lewis on 20/02/2020 14:35:08:

So are the new drawing a breach of the original copyright, since nothing on them corresponds / duplicates the original, possibly fractional, ones? Presumably the copyright of the metric dimension drawing now lies with the CAD operator rather than the man who first put pencil to paper with Imperial, probably, fractional sizes..

Most likely they are a breach of copyright. Copying someone else's drawings and changing a few details such as dimensional units does not make it your own original work. The actual design itself is the intellectual property of the copyright holder -- whoever that is these days, possibly LSBC's estate or a publisher who bought the rights.

For example, you can't copy Dan Brown's latest best seller thriller novel and change the names of the characters and the locations and call it your own. On a lesser scale, I know if someone changed a few details such as measurements on one of my magazine articles I've had published and stuck their name at the top and sold it to another mag, I'd be pursuing them with lawyers blazing.

Intellectual property law is complex and an IP lawyer would need to look into the specifics of the LSBC case to get a definitive answer. But a deal might be able to be worked out with the copyright holder/s if they are interested in receiving royalties from sales of a metric version.

David Reeves 117/03/2020 17:41:40
17 forum posts

In Model Engineer of FEBRUARY 6, 1947 Page 207, in his discussion of: Variations for "Juliet", Walschaerts or Baker Gear?, LBSC writes:

... others who are rather tickled or intrigued by the simplicity and ease of construction of the little nest of rods and links, designed by the Baker who didn’t know what a BU was (lucky fellow!) want to know if they can Bakerise “Juliet”.

Does anyone know what BU is short for?

Dave Reeves

J Hancock17/03/2020 17:50:25
371 forum posts

For those wishing Mr da Silva would build one of LBSC's locomotives, yes please and finally provide

a set of correctly dimensioned drawings for each one.

Frances IoM17/03/2020 18:00:45
721 forum posts
25 photos
Re the Baker is it a ref to the Hunting of the Snark - the Baker called out thinking he'd found it but then disappeared for it was a Boojum he had found.
The other one I recall from my sheltered childhood is B*gg*rs Uncle but what or who that is I can't think
Bill Chugg17/03/2020 18:00:46
1299 forum posts
8 photos
Posted by David Reeves 1 on 17/03/2020 17:41:40:

In Model Engineer of FEBRUARY 6, 1947 Page 207, in his discussion of: Variations for "Juliet", Walschaerts or Baker Gear?, LBSC writes:

... others who are rather tickled or intrigued by the simplicity and ease of construction of the little nest of rods and links, designed by the Baker who didn’t know what a BU was (lucky fellow!) want to know if they can Bakerise “Juliet”.

Does anyone know what BU is short for?

Dave Reeves

Best answer that with a PM me thinks so I am not banned. wink

On a more serious note,for anyone interested in Baker gear on Juliet, SRS have one on their site which nicely shows all the dangley bits.

Bill

Bill Chugg17/03/2020 18:05:19
1299 forum posts
8 photos
Posted by Frances IoM on 17/03/2020 18:00:45:
Re the Baker is it a ref to the Hunting of the Snark - the Baker called out thinking he'd found it but then disappeared for it was a Boojum he had found.
The other one I recall from my sheltered childhood is B*gg*rs Uncle but what or who that is I can't think

Just tried the Australian slang dictionry but suprisingly could not find it., sorry but drawn a blank.

Bill

Jeff Dayman17/03/2020 18:44:47
1762 forum posts
45 photos

Frances IoM - I'm sure I am not the only one who has no idea what your post refers to. I do understand that Mr Reeves was asking about a quote about Baker valvegear by LBSC but what is all the text about Boojum, snarks, uncles etc?

(I was raised in the 1960's - 1970's - maybe I am too young to understand the refs)

Frances IoM17/03/2020 18:51:36
721 forum posts
25 photos
lookup Lewis Carroll - Hunting of the Snark -
Neil Wyatt17/03/2020 20:12:47
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17391 forum posts
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77 articles

Posted by Hopper on 27/02/2020 00:06:45:

The actual design itself is the intellectual property of the copyright holder -- whoever that is these days, possibly LSBC's estate or a publisher who bought the rights.

LBSC's estate, it's been a good while but i do know at least one person who has been in touch with them in the past.

I don't think creating a 3D model from his plans is any more of an infringement than building a physical model.

I think trouble would be plans were bring sold.

As for derivative designs, it's more of a grey area.

I expect LBSC would be pleased if people made new designs base don his, as long as they didn't suggest they were 'improvements'

GOK what he would say if he found out about all the people who have 'fixed' some of his valve gear designs - hell to pay! The pages of ME would combust!

Neil

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